Betrayal of trust?

[confuzzledman]

First, apologies for the length of this, but I want to make sure the whole story is here. I'm a 37 year old man. I've been with my partner for around 7 years and we have two children, 2 and 4. During their early years, my partner didn't get out much. So when she was finally able to go out dancing (she always loved ballroom and latin etc) I was fully supportive. She started going to local classes on Monday and Thursday evenings. After a while, she started attending social dances on a Friday night which ran from around 10pm until 12:45am. Again, I was fully supportive.

One night roughly last November, she was a bit late back (it was nearly 1.30am) so I called her phone. She informed me she was on a road not too far away. She got home and just as I was almost asleep and half in a dream state, the thought entered my head that she wouldn't go on that road to get back. So I innocently asked if she gave someone a lift home. She instantly went very defensive, which of cause caused me to be suspicious. I mentioned it the next day, but not much more was said.

A couple of weeks later on a Sunday, I walked in to our bedroom and she rather abruptly put her phone down (it was charging) and hovvered arround until I left the room. A little while later we were both downstairs, and I went up again to do something. She quietly followed me, peered around the door and watched me until I'd left the room. I obviously found this behaviour odd. So one day I got one of her phone bills (she didn't hide them) and checked, and she'd been texting her dance instructor, sometimes at late hours, sometimes several times a day. I questioned her about this and she insisted it was friendly, and the late hours were just to check she'd got home ok. The times seemed to agree with this and she did reluctantly let me see some of the texts. There was nothing odd in them.

So we agreed that she would be more open about her communications with him and we moved on.

Shortly after new year, she was late back again one Friday night and was again defensive about it. Given what we'd agreed and the previous suspicious behaviour, I got someone to follow her the following Friday.
She left the dance place with her instructor at 12:30am and sat in the car until 1:15am in a very dark place. I had them recorded. She was cold and he was holiding her hand. Most of the time the conversation was friendly, but there were a couple of parts I didn't like.

First, talking about dancing, the converstation turned to her being nervious around him. When he asked why, she replied twice "you have no idea of the effect you have on me". This was in a very soft flirty voice. A short while later, referring to him warming her hand up, she said something like "you're like an electric blanket. I wish you could warm all of me up" followed slightly later by her saying "I'd better not get any closer or I can't be held responsible for my actions."

I didn't let her know I'd heard all this. I'm not proud of having them recorded but given the result, I'm glad I did.

The next day, I didn't tell her I knew but asked her about her evening and why she was so late back. She lied, saying it finished at 12:45am, she left and 1 and came straight home. I told her that I knew someone else who had gone and she'd seem them leave together at 12:30, so where had they been. Only then (and getting cross) did she admit she'd chatted in the car to him. I asked if they'd held hands... "No". Did you flirt? "No, not at all". How long were you there for? "Around 10 minutes or so"... etc... basically all lies until I told her about the recording. An argument followed.

Over a few days, she finally admitted that if it was the other way around, she'd be furious at me, and that she shouldn't have acted in that way. I told her I didn't want her going to the classes with him, or to the social at all while I tried to rebuild the trust. For both of us.

Recently, she's had some tough news about a family member, and to help her release I started to agree (reluctantly) to her going back to the classes again. Last weekend, I was away from Friday night until Sunday evening. I told her I was nervous about it, but she could go on Friday and I wouldn't mind.

She didn't go on Friday night. However, on my return I found that she'd texted him over the weekend. I don't know exactly what was in the text because she'd deleted them, but the phone still showed that something had been sent to him. I questioned it and she told me that she decided she didn't want to go Friday night if he wasn't there. We argued again because I pointed out that she shouldn't care whether he is there or not, and I didn't want her contacting him. She said she doesn't see anything wrong with what she did, but obviously she knew I wouldn't like it or she wouldn't have tried to cover her tracks.

I got in touch with him and found out that she'd texted him Friday night and when he didn't respond she tried to text and call on Saturday.

I asked her this morning why she'd tried to contact him on Saturday and she denied she had, saying it was only Friday to find out if he was going. Again, another lie.

Now, let me stress, I don't think anything physical (other than the dancing) has happened between them, but the lies and cover ups and the car thing are enough for me. So I've told her I don't want her going to any classes or social events where he will be.

She says I'm being controlling (to be honest, before we had kids I probably was quite controlling, but then so is she and I've not been of late) I don't think I'm being at all unfair. I've talked about this with 2 close friends and they both think I've been much clamer and more forgiving than they would have been.

She genuinely seems to think I'm overreacting though - so I want to see what others think. I've tried to tell this as honestly as I can, and while it's my "side of the story" I've tried to remain factual.

I've offered a final ultimatum - stop seeing him or I leave. Am I being unreasonable.

It's your relationship. You are perfectly entitled to set your own boundaries. She knows what she's doing hurts you, if she didn't then she would lie about it. So in short, she knows she's putting her wants above your needs.

Tbh, I'd have fine the same as you have.

Done, not fine *

Ok, the fact you had her followed gives me the creeps. That aside, I don't think YABU to not want them to spend time together when she obviously has feelings for him. However do you not think you would be better working on your relationship rather having her followed and checking her phone? Cutting him out of her life isn't going to resolve anything in the long run.

If she is unhappy there may very well be other men at different times? Will you gradually cut out contact with all men in her life?

I think you need to stop focusing so much on this one man and look at the big picture.

Yanbu I would feel the exact same as you. It's not just a male friend though is it, you don't take it to that extent with friends.

I've never had her followed or done anything like that before, and I'm not worried about other men because she's never been defensive or had that body language about other men. There was clearly something odd about the situation and I wanted to stop it before it got any further. By allowing her (slowly) back to the classes, that was my attempt to say that I was trying to rebuild the trust, and I have tried discussing the bigger picture but it doesn't change anything. If she's unhappy, she's better off if I left, so the ultimatum would achieve that whatever.

Allow? You do sound controlling. I don't agree with what she did necessarily but you don't allow your wife to do anything. She is her own person and ultimately what she does is her choice not yours.

YANBU to ask her to do something but you can't forbid it.

Ask her not to do*

By allow, I mean allow her to go without it overstepping my trust boundary. She agreed to my request and understood the reasons. I would never actually stop her going. Just that I was clear thst I wasn't ready to trust her with him so if she saw him again I'd leave her. I don't think that is unfair given what had happened.

And I add, with much difficulty I did trust her to start going again, and that trust was again broken.

By your side she is having/has had/wants to take it to far with this guy. The following thing is extreme but understandable as is the recording, I did the same with my ex when I thought he has having one, i'm not proud of it but it told me what I needed to know. You are very much within your rights to issue an ultimatum and very understanding and tolerant, again from your side of the story.

What do you mean by: (to be honest, before we had kids I probably was quite controlling, but then so is she and I've not been of late) in what way were you controlling and why did kids reduce your controlling behavior?

Perhaps controlling is the wrong word for what I was. Maybe stubborn, argumentative and childish are better. She used to acuse me of all sorts of things that I never did and threaten to leave me over them. The difference being I never did anything. That is what I mean when I say she was controlling.

I have to say if my DP followed me and recorded my conversations that would be the end of the relationship, so when your friends are telling you you're being calm and forgiving, do bear in mind that she is too, won't you?

That said, it sounds to me like an emotional affair. I think you have to work on what's gone wrong before you can rebuild trust - I get the feeling you've both thought 'fine, no more classes, that's it done' then tried to move on without really addressing the issues that led to her behaviour.

I think you both have to agree to no more classes, that's pretty much a minimum. But then the real work has to begin to understand what has gone wrong in your relationship and to work together to fix things. Only then can you really start to think about going back to where you were, ie to have that trust back.

I think you've both tried to sweep what happened under the carpet, but unfortunately that doesn't really tend to work.

WilsonFrickett - I'm assuming that you wouldn't do anything that would require you to be worried about having your conversations recorded? I certainly don't. I understand totally that it is out of order, but I must stress that if these things hadn't happened, I would be none the wiser and I knew something was going on. And it's not something I did with no regard for the consequencies. She has and had repeatedly lied about him so this was sort of a last resort.

I know there are deeper issues for both of us, but my question is purely around my ultimatum and whether it is unreasonable.

God if my conversations were recorded it could get me into all sorts of trouble. Things can be taken out of context, something which may be intended as a joke to another may come across as something more if a third party were listening. I also flirt, there is nothing in it but to someone else listening it would again be taken to mean more than it actually does.

I'm not saying you have taken what was said out of context but as I said before I do think that if you lack so much trust in your partner that you are resorting to arranging for someone else (who was this someone?) to follow your partner and recording her conversations that you have a lot more problem than just this one man.

Have you suggested any form of relationship counselling? Could you arrange to attend a different dance class together? Make it a couples night out once or twice a month?

No your ultimatum is not unreasonable at all. She has damaged your trust and should be doing everything she can to repair it. She's not.

Tbh I think she's treating you terribly. The fact that you were pushed into doing something quite humiliating like recording her and listening to a ridiculous flirty conversation says a lot about the state of your marriage.

This type of Dancing is not something that single people do.. You need a partner.

Why don't you get a babysitter and go with her?

I would say she is having or is about to have a relationship with the dance teacher.

Yanbu.

YANBU. I wouldn't be able to trust her in those circumstances, you've stated it's more than you are willing to put up with (I don't think that's 'controlling' - that's saying 'this is more than I can deal with in a relationship' - cards on table and fair enough), and she now has a choice to make.

I'd be feeling the same in your shoes.

Oh I think there are probably lots of things that I wouldn't want recorded confuzzled, however that is not the point of the thread is it? My point was that you are not without blame and listening to friends telling you you're almost too calm and too forgiving isn't what you need to hear.

The person you need to be talking to is your wife.

WRT your ultimatum, I don't think it's unreasonable, but you gave her an ultimatum before and it didn't work, did it? She went back to the dancing. So while it may a short term fix to make you feel the situation isn't escalating, it doesn't solve the situation. What's next?

WilsonFrickett - the ultimatum did work before, but I relaxed my boundaries as I became more comfortable with trying to trust again, effectively saying I was ok with her going dancing again.

To those that suggest I go dancing with her, I have done this the Friday before last for the first time. I hated it. However, I had agreed to keep going once a week anyway. I don't really see why I should have to go and do something I hate once a week, but I agreed nonetheless.

However, due to him being an experienced and very good dancer, and me being rather rubbish, my efforts clearly wouldn't be enough for her. Besides, I was perfectly fine with her dancing with other partners (including him) until the trouble started - I'm not the jealous type.

If you need to have her followed and to record her conversations then the relationship is over.

It doesn't matter whether she's having an affair or not. If you suspect someone to that degree then evidence or lack thereof makes no difference - the trust has gone - even if you find nothing.

And imagine if you'd found nothing, (and a chat in a car is hardly evidence is it?) then what? what extreme doo you go to next to find what it is you're looking for? And what do you think happens to your relationship if she finds out you're recording her conversations?

For those who say that if you have nothing to hide then it doesn't matter if someone is recording what you say, just think about how it would feel not knowing whether or not there is a recorder in the house/car to record your every word. You can't say anything to anyone because it might be captured somewhere. Still comfortable with that? really?

Let me tell you I've been on the other side and the feeling of violation and almost needing to watch your every word because you have no idea who is watching/reading/listening is horrible. I've been tracked/had emails/twitter accounts hacked/had my phone tracked/had remote access used to see what I was doing on the computer and yes, recorded with a voice-activated app. There is no coming back from that. None.

I understand why you might feel that you need to know whether she's having an affair - I really do. I also understand why you feel uncomfortable with her texting her dance instructor and need to discuss with her how that makes you feel. There's nothing wrong with that.

But if your trust has broken tdown to the extent that you have had to resort to covert surveylence then I'm afraid you already have no relationship anyway.

No, that's my point though confuzzled, it didn't work because it didn't solve the problem.

Imagine you love chocolate. There's a big bar of it in your house. Someone comes along and says 'I don't want you to have the chocolate' and locks it up. You still want the chocolate, don't you? And that's all ultimatums do, temporarily remove access to the desired thing. And actually make it more desirable - we all know about forbidden fruit.

In the nicest possible way, there seems to be a deep problem within your marriage. Your ultimatum made you feel like you'd stopped the rot, but it didn't - she still wants the chocolate.

Really the question you should be asking of both of you is 'do we want to stay in this marriage'. You need to start talking.

wannaBe - I've done nothing suspicious to warrant her worrying, so yes, I would be a bit peed off if she did record me. However, if I was out every Friday night, coming back late and acting strangely about another woman who I'd previously already been found to be lying about, quite honestly I'd think I deserved it. However, I would never, ever let it come to that. If it was innocent friendly chat, I'd be completely and totally open about it and not hide it/delete texts etc.

To those that have suggested things are too broken to fix, it's not what I want to hear but actually think I agree with you. I guess I'm asking myself if I should blame myself more and her less. I've tried really hard, mostly for the kids sake but also because

I appreciate all your opinions, even the ones who point out my weaknesses in all this.

I don't think you should blame yourself at all, and you don't sound even a tiny bit controlling to me.

It is not controlling to try and prevent yourself being cheated on, it's common sense.

I don't think you can trust your wife, and if you can't trust her, you can't have a healthy marriage with her. I also don't think that she loves you the way you deserve to be loved because if she did, she wouldn't be interested in this guy.

Sorry, but I think you should leave her, or throw her out.

Yanbu