To ask should smacking children be banned.

[HadABadDay2014]

Just seen this on the welsh news.

I am not perfect and once I have smacked ds felt awful and never did it again.

Now I know if this was a patient at work or a member of the public I would had been arrested and highly likely ended up with a criminal record and lost my job.

So the question is should snaking children be banned.

1.Is it morally acceptable to give a small child a tap which shocks them out of naughty behaviour, I would say yes because it is preferable to standing them on the naughty spot sobbing for 3 or 4 minutes. Its over and done with and associated with the undesirable action.

No. I have said many times already that there are other courses of action that are better than both smacking AND timeout/naughty step.

1. is it morally acceptable to let a child continue with undesirable behaviour at the expense of another child or children when removal, stern talking and distraction don't work and a quick tap does?

No. Again, removal/explanation/distraction takes many repetitions to work. If the behaviour is harming another child, then the next step would have to be constant supervision of the child who is misbehaving to ensure the safety of the other child/children. Or depending on ages/home setup perhaps using a playpen, or zoned off area to separate the children.

1. Is it morally responsible to allow one child to learn that its OK for people including other children to hit her so that you can maintain your no smack policy?

No. See answers to 1 and 2.

1. Is it morally acceptable to allow your child to grow up with no boundaries and learn they can take what they want and behave how they want to the detriment of society?

No. Who has suggested this, or thinks this is a good idea?

As regards your other comments, there is plenty of evidence that smacking is ineffective and has undesirable long term effects (this includes the kind of "tapping" that you describe, which I have to say I would call a smack). There are other parenting approaches which don't involve physical chastisement of children and which are more effective.

How can you say " I totally agree 'hitting' anyone is wrong" and then argue about the scale of hitting? It makes no sense.

Clapping loudly behind somebody's head or shouting "UH!" would startle them. (A tap wouldn't startle anybody). Why do you have to hit?

For a 3yo who kept undoing their seatbelt after being told why it is needed. I would try (in no particular order except starting with the things which are quick and easy and ending with things which are serious or costly etc. I would not expect to run through every single thing on the list.)

• Tell them that they can open their seatbelt themselves when I say it's time to, not before. If they open it before then they won't get to do it at the proper time (in fact this worked for DS which is why I've put it first. I can't remember what we tried unsuccessfully.)

• Buy a contraption so that the child can't reach the seatbelt such as a guard. Or in a 5 point harness, which a 3 year old should be in anyway, stick the spiky side of velcro onto the release button. Apparently it makes it too uncomfortable for little toddler fingers, but it's OK for adult fingers. If the problem was wriggling arms out I'd buy one of the after market things like the 5 point plus (I think this is brilliant!) or the chest strap (less keen on these but hey, if desperate).

• Do a lot of practice trips on slow roads where it's easy to stop, where I can stop and immediately do it back up until they learn it's pointless. (This seems a bit annoying and flawed in practice. I probably wouldn't do this.)

• (Similar) Do a lot of practice trips where you immediately stop the car, do it up and go back home if they undo it. And be cross. Similar to "shock tactic" of a smack??

• If easily possible, ask another authority figure, e.g. nursery teacher, grandma, police officer, to also explain/tell off a bit. (Not massively keen on this but could work)

• Embellish truth a bit e.g. say that Mummy/Daddy might go to prison if car seat straps are not done up, because it's our job to keep you safe. (Although this seems a bit extreme. I have said "Nursery will be mad at me if you don't wear a coat" before. But going to prison if you misbehave might be a bit strong!)

• Check car seat is comfortable for them. See if I can help in any way e.g. trying with different clothes in case a belt etc is uncomfortable, check straps are on the right setting, maybe get some of those strap covers to make them softer, or a liner for the seat. Are they too hot/cold?

• Are they bored in the car, can we distract them? Is there a sibling/other person in the car who can keep an eye and prevent them from fiddling with the strap and/or distract as soon as they start? Possibly consider in car entertainment like packing special toys only for the car, letting them play on an old phone/ipod etc or even consider getting a DVD player or ipad stand for headrest etc.

• Consider buying a different car seat, if financially viable, with a harder to undo strap or some other difference (higher up, different position in car, more room for child, etc)

• Role play with a doll/teddy and a toy car seat or unused middle seatbelt. Ask child to make sure that doll/teddy is safe in the car and "ask" doll/teddy to make sure child is safe too.

• Consider doing an emergency stop at a slow speed with child in a private driveway/non public road to show them what would happen if the car crashed without their straps on. (I'm not actually a driver so I don't know if this is safe but I've seen it suggested on here - it sounds a bit dangerous.)

• Consider reducing trips in the car to those which are absolutely necessary.

There are really lots of ways to communicate with and help a 3-6 year old understand something without smacking them.

You have to try and see things from the child's point of view. They are not naughty just for the sake of it because they think it's hilarious. Letting DS know it was OK to open the car seat strap but not until we said worked because the reason he was opening it was because he wanted to open it, it was fun and made him feel grown up. As soon as we said "You can - in X situation" he got it. OK a couple of times he did it too early, (still after the car had stopped) and we really seriously told him quite strictly that that was NOT okay and that he wouldn't be allowed to do it at all until we said. And I think he might have lost out on some privilege or another on those occasions. But it took twice of this happening for him to remember that he had to wait until we said it was okay. We also helped him to remember by reminding him when we were getting near to stopping.

I have never yet seen a child that needs a smack, ( their behaviour can be dealt with by non violent methods) but I have seen plenty of parents that need parenting lessons.

Gottage- exactly.

When my daughter was about 3 years old she systematically broke every one of a box of 12 eggs whilst I was having an 'I must pee now' moment ( we'd only just stepped through the door from the supermarket. We had zero funds at the time and that box of eggs constituted lunch for us for 5 days until I got paid ... I was absolutely distraught/frustrated/furious. I saw red and just lost it, I raised my hand to smack. I had NEVER smacked my daughter before and she thought I was going to pick her up so she shot her hands up in the air. In that split second I thought I was going to die of shame. The fact that I had come so close to hitting my beloved DD in anger was abhorrent to me. I picked her up and breathed her in. She looked at me and pointed down at her mess and said 'I make cake for you Mumma' I sobbed/laughed hysterically. I saved as many of the eggs I could, and made a load of 'very diluted' scrambled egg for the freezer (I seem to remember it does not defrost too well! Blurgh) as soon as I had finished that job the enormity of what I had nearly done hit me. I really think it has shaped me as a parent. We explain, we don't shout; we discuss we don't dictate. DD is now nearly 10 and she's a bit shy and a bit bossy but she is the most cheeky, loving, caring and positive little thing. I still remember that day and it still makes me shudder and feel terrible shame at how close I came to hitting my DD.

KK you thought you were about to lash out in temper at your child because you were frustrated.No one is advocating that ever.
If you are the sort of person (and I am pleased to see you aren't) who cannot control their emotions then I think it is very important to have a no-smacking policy becasue it would be very easy to over step the mark.I would never ever smack in anger.

BertirBotts they are all long term solutions.
They are not things you can put into practice then and there at that moment in time.

Irene- yes better to smack in cold blood eh?

Why are long term effective solutions not acceptable Irene? There are options in the suggestions that Bertie gave that would be immediately safe, and then you could work on following through with the others.

And are you suggesting that one sharp smack would guarantee that every child would never do it again? If not, then your solution also is long term, and has the disadvantage (to me, admittedly not to you) of involving hitting a child.

Irene do you genuinely lack the skills to parent without smacking?

You say you work with children- I assume you don't smack them, How do you maintain discipline without hitting those in your care?

Smacking because you're frightened/angry, smacking because you're frustrated/angry, smacking because you're attempting to show the error of a child's way through corporal punishment is still hitting a child. I can't imagine how I would feel if I had actually smacked my DD. I don't agree with smacking at all and am deeply shamed at how close I came to smacking (which is hitting). I can't think why anyone would think it was OK to smack a child - I nearly did and I'm never going to forgive myself for it.

The smug self satisfaction of mumsnet is unbelievable at times. Got better things to do like making sure DS stays out of the kitchen cupboards, than argue with the parallel universe some of you inhabit.

I think some people of the people so horrified at tapping a child's behind, must have issues around the subject.

Ah, well, that's the killer rebuttall to the anti-smacking viewpoint. We're all smug, self satisfied and living in a parallel universe. Right.

Smacking doesn't prevent them undoing the seat either, because you can't do it in advance. You do it the one time after the event, (immediately after is still after) in the hope that it frightens/shocks them into never doing it again, which, by the way, is not a given that it will - smacking advocates always seem to suggest that it's some magical tonic but lots of children will go on to reoffend after a smack. It's no more effective than any other punishment IMO, apart from the immediacy and somewhat the fear factor. Except everyone also argues that it's not scary/doesn't hurt so slight contradiction in terms there.

Of course as with any situation where a child has placed themselves in danger you remove the danger first - stopping the car, and then you deal with it. Either by smacking, or by reinforcing the message some other way, or by preventing it in future.

Ah, that's useful Irene, we must also be psychologically damaged as well.

Rjae- do you feel smug because you don't hit your husband?

Going around hitting people because you don't like what they are doing is your own little nasty universe I'm afraid.

If you are unable to parent without physical violence perhaps you need some help.

Ooooh. Insults and gross exaggeration now!

Finding it strange that I am being bullied by so called pacifists and unable to understand why you are attempting to force me to accept your POV? I accept yours and your choices but you seem entitled to twist my words and misrepresent me. The usual MN tactic we see all the time

I wouldn't personally tap my child for breaking eggs. Entirely my fault.

I was never smacked as a child but my Mum was. She was smacked with an open hand and she remembers it hurting a little physically, a lot psychologically. She has always told me that all smacking taught her was that she was a 'horrible person', she reasoned she must be as her Mum could hurt her. It caused so many issues for her. She was really badly bullied at school and didn't tell my Gran about it as she thought she was bullied because she was horrible, she thought she deserved it FFS. my Mum is a fab Mum, loving and kind, she's got a temper on her but she would always say to me that [what ever I had done] had made her sad/angry/etc and could she tell me why. She'd never ever leave me with Gran on my own and when my Gran asked why that was (when I was about 10) she told her. My gran was really upset and dealt with it by refusing to see me or my Mum again. She's recently contacted me to tell me she was 'ashamed' which is why she acted that way (if you ask me 24 years is A LOT of shame ) So yes, I would say smacking children does have issues for me, though probably not in the way you meant.

Do you not think that calling people smug and self-satisfied is insulting? Also it's not particularly accepting of them either, as is insisting that people with a different view point must be living in a parallel universe.

I am not trying to force you to accept my view (although I would be pleased if you did), I am just trying to understand why you are completely happy with smacking/tapping. None of your reasons make much sense to me, I'm sorry.

You are not being bullied Rjae, how silly.

You are simply in a discussion where your opinion is the minority (thankfully).

It is always very interesting how these thread tend to go, the 'pro-smackers' always end up getting huffy and flouncy.

Irene you asked what harm could come to a child from a smack.

I don't think that it does cause physical or even, particularly, emotional harm.

What it does harm IMO is the trust in the parent. I want my child to know that I will never hurt them on purpose. There are only three situations I can justify hurting a child - 1, by accident, in which case apologise of course. 2, for medical need, in which case I would always explain why it was needed and comfort as much as possible. 3, to physically prevent them hurting themselves or others, but only ever using as much force as necessary. It might hurt to be dragged back from a road by whichever body part I can reach but I don't feel the need to yank purposefully hard, or smack on top just to reinforce the message.

I also think that using a physical or intellectual advantage you have over somebody to make them do what you want is bullying. I don't want my children to feel bullied. I communicate with them, which doesn't mean ONLY talking but might involve some talking, even young children can be talked to about behaviour issues if you use the right wording and back it up with a lot of reinforcing action.

Obv the "no harm" comment was meant about a single, open handed smack on a child's clothed bottom. Not some full on beating with a studded belt or something. That could, of course, cause significant harm.

When I have 'confessed' to tapping DS on the bottom once in his life for hitting his disabled sister in the face with a push along toy with a very deliberate intent (I was supervising but did not expect it) I get all this crap about being violently abusive and 'hitting'! Not to mention a poor parent (managing my 3 DC thank you without social services involvement) needing tips on my parenting style and on and on!

Overreactive a little I think to imply I beat the crap out of the DC on a regular basis. Fwiw. DS1 (two taps for running in the road and the seat belt) DD none obviously and DS2 once for the above. Hardly makes me Cruella de Ville.

It's just strange no one can see they are safety issues and therefore on the highest end of discipline.

I was smacked twice as a child and it has not affected my self esteem. It's the other areas of parenting that are far more important than a couple of taps which cause a moments alarm.

Ds2 is playing with the extension cable ... And just sent a vase flying! Now playing with the telephone. He is just exploring so it doesn't even bother me let alone warrant a tap!