AIBU to be angry about attendance charge from school

[HidingInTheBathroom]

I am very upset at the minute. Received my fine today for taking my children out of school four days before they break up for Christmas.

Me and my husband have received a £60 fine for each child for each parent.

We are being charged more for being a couple. Which I think is wrong. The last week of school they only watch films and went to a pantomime. Oh and had a school disco. The holiday was far more educational than watching films and family time is hard to come by with work.

When I have requested a meeting with the head teacher I have just got a mouthful of abusive from the receptionist.

tiggy you are awesome, your explainations are brilliant, thank you

Maybe HTs should discuss with the Education Secretary the flack they are getting. Along with the other things Headteachers want to discuss with Gove.

He's talking at the NAHT conference. Should be interesting.

Holly, you made your decision, in the knowledge you might be fined. You might get away with it or not.
The reason it was denied because the fact it suited other family members to meet then, does not count as exceptional. It would not have been impossible for the family to have it another time. It might not have suited everyone, but large family gatherings rarely do. The date chosen did not suit a school age child.
I totally appreciate you wanted to go and felt it was important to be there, but it wasn't exceptional in the way that is defined (essential and not possible to have at any other time than that precise term time date)
I appreciate your honesty though. You asked the school, which was the right thing to do. Your children did not have to see you lie and pretend there was sickness and neither did you ask them to lie either. At that point it was your decision. Many of us speed every day knowing it is illegal. We know we might be caught and fined. You are in the same situation.

See - speeding can kill people.
Shoplifting affects shops income.

A day off school. Is that in the same league?

On one hand, I think it would help if schools clarified this whole thing more to parents.
They need to make clear the fines are levied by LEAs not the school. They need to make clear what exceptional means. They need to encourage parents to make sure wider family understand that most family events will not be considered exceptional. (People won't like being told this, but I think it would help)
However, the danger of this is that if people have a clearer sense of exceptional, they will start to design their requests to include (lies often) things which are exceptional and are one offs, which could not occur at anything other than that precise point in term time. I guess if they kept asking though, it would raise suspicion, but be difficult to prove what was going on.....and isn't really the Heads job to have to do that.

And that's what annoys me because we do a lot of education at home - including correcting what school has "taught" him, take him on educational trips, spend a lot of our home time doing school work.

And then to be labelled a criminal.

Holly, it doesn't matter if its in the same league. All of those things are illegal with consequences.

Lots of illegal things are in differ leagues. Most people consider murder more serious than driving whilst on a phone. Both are illegal and have consequences in law. They are different consequences, but both exist.

The thing is, if the law says that unauthorised absence is illegal, then bering absent from school is punishable.

As tiggy has repeatedly said, a single day off school is vanishingly unklikely to lead to a fine - a recogntion (like the leeway given for exceeduing the speed limit by 1 mile an hour) that it is not seen as being in the same league as a fortnight's holiday, or 50 in a 30 mph zone.

TBH - I think parents should be able to take children out of school for occasional day things. Just as long as people don't start taking the piss.

1 day off will not affect learning.

And 1 day off, even if unauthorised, will not usually be fined (though actually, in the case I knew that led to a threat of imprisonment, the absence was in amounts of 1 day ... 1 day per week, on average...)

I do, however, disagree that 1 day off will have no effect. On Monday, i will teach factors in maths. I don't plan to teach it again for a long while, because it is a 'once and once only' type of lesson, and IME children, once they know the word, can find factors easily. I will assume that knowledge , however, in subsequent teaching.... A child who is absent will miss it.

Holly, but you see it is difficult to say what 'taking the piss' is. For you one day is okay. Others might see 4 days as okay or 6 or.......
The lack of clarity previously was the problem. It put HTs in impossible situations.
The rules are clear cut now. You sound like you want what is convenient for you. In a bigger organisation, where the actions of individuals affect others in the class or organisation, this isn't possible to allow.

If you teach factors for one lesson, well you're only just touching on it. Which means some children will get it. Some won't. I would have thought that learning would be for a week. Children forget things after a day - especially maths.

And you would of course be doing factors as part of maths lessons more regularly.

IME - as a maths teacher, children forget words and concepts easily so it needs revisiting. Lots.

The wealthy will be able to afford the more expensive holidays or the fines (if their kids are not at private school already). It's just a tax on the poor or a cooercion of the poor that will not apply to the wealthy.

Look at the example Holly gave. It will be easily affordable for wealthier families to do that. It will be very hard for a poor family to do that. So either they will be cooerced into behaviour which the wealthier will not face, or they will face financial hardship that the wealthier won't face for the same actions.

Tiggy, your third point; you say that as if everybody can just say 'Oh, well we can't take them out of school so lets pay 3 times the price in the holidays'. For an awful lot of children (including mine) it means that they just won't see their family overseas or will see them much more infrequently.

Half my sons family lives overseas and when he goes to school I think that he will probably see them about once every 3 years rather than twice a year as he does now. Now we go for the cheapest time of year and get bargains when nobody else wants to go. That won't be an option anymore.

That might sound like something trivial to you but it's a great loss to a child, not to really know half of their close family.

And I will say it again. It will only be POOR CHILDREN who will face these losses.

Just as long as people don't start taking the piss

But surely that's just the point, Holly - as we've seen on here time after time, once one family is "allowed" something many others immediately claim "me too, me too!!" They know for a fact that so-and-so was off for x for they want it for y or z

As I said before, the system isn't perfect but we need to realise that previous widespread "taking the piss" is exactly why we've ended up in the current position

I would love to think that all these people defending it would stick to their principles if they had to take a day off and wanted their DC with them.

The moral high ground is easy until you are faced with a situation.

So Holly, you say '5x 1 day tri[s over the year is no problem'.

Next parent says '5 day holiday is the same amount of time off as Holly, so no problem.'

Next parent says 'Well, actually, I know I had 5 days earlier in the year, but I now have 2 1-day things I'd like to do'.

Next parent says ' Well, the week before the end of the year doesn't matter, sop I'll have that as well as the 5 individual days'.

Next parent says 'I'd like those 10 days all at once'.

Where does 'taking the piss' start? io would suggest it is always, for all parents, just a little bit more that what they themselves would like to do - a sort of 'I am firm, you are stern, he is harsh' type of tyhing.

tiggy tape some parents did take their dc back home in term time to visit relatives. Would this be viewed any differently? I don't see it as being any different but it does happen.

I worked in a Yorkshire village school. Lots of parent farmers who asked for a day off to attend the Yorkshire Show.

Should that request be refused or granted? It's very educational and only falls on weekdays.

There is plenty of research that suggests even a single day off will affect learning. The effect may be small but it is there.

I think I've already said this but any fines must be in line with the LA's Code of Practise. I don't know of any LA where the code of practise allows parents to be fined for a single day unauthorised absence where attendance is otherwise good. A fine will normally only kick in for an extended unauthorised absence or repeated unauthorised absences. Most LAs say that in most situations the parent should be given a formal warning with a penalty notice only following if there is no improvement.

Holly, as I cannot, ever, take a day off during term time, the situation is very unlikely to arise!

(I appreciate that I have lots of holiday with my children ... though excuse me if I am less than sympathetic to the 'oh it's cheaper out of term' brigade)

Of course you are right about factors. But the fact remains that the child who missedf the first teaching will always be 'one step behind' in the repetition, especially as the repetition will not generally start from the beginning again, but will presume the earlier foundation is there even if only partially remembered.

As a teacher you are used to children missing lessons for appointments.

Should children be banned from medical appointments in school hours?

I have plenty of parents whose children come in late or leave mid morning for an appointment.

Why is that OK?

Would you be ok with a child missing your factor lesson to go to the dentists?