AIBU to be angry about attendance charge from school

[HidingInTheBathroom]

I am very upset at the minute. Received my fine today for taking my children out of school four days before they break up for Christmas.

Me and my husband have received a £60 fine for each child for each parent.

We are being charged more for being a couple. Which I think is wrong. The last week of school they only watch films and went to a pantomime. Oh and had a school disco. The holiday was far more educational than watching films and family time is hard to come by with work.

When I have requested a meeting with the head teacher I have just got a mouthful of abusive from the receptionist.

I wonder if all of this highlights the need for even more information. Tiggy, you are right that people know generally that if they break the law, they risk the penalty.
People taking their children out of school for holidays don't like to think of themselves as law breakers. I just wonder if it were spelled out very very clearly, that taking your children out of school without permission is exactly that _ Law breaking, then some (not all Im sure) would take a slightly different view of it, because they don't want to be law breakers. If course, there will then be another round of people saying how can taking children on holiday, be law breaking....but that is just how it will be.

I also think that attitudes will change over time. This is very new and people don't like new laws. People are still surprised when the law is actually applied and they or someone they know gets a fine. They haven't quite believed it will happen. Perhaps they have seen it as a bluff.
Once it happens in a common place way and people are very clear that this happens, most will readjust their behaviour.....in just the same way as we were slow to wear seatbelts when that became law, but then did adapt to it.
Of course, an argument could be made that the fine should be bigger. Penalties only work if they hurt people enough. If people just see the fine as part of the total cost of their holiday and are willing to pay, it won't be so effective. Although, I still think most don't want to be lawbreakers. I will be very interested to see what attitudes to this are in 5 years time.

So if I got a fine would that be enough to say school didn't have a policy for me to adhere to in court?

No.
You are talking about these fines as if they are some sort of internal thing that schools have decided to adopt. This is not the case.

Sorry I didn't put that well. I meant the LEA are required (by law) to provide a policy to the school. Surely this must give some guidance as to what the fine will be and when it will be issued. So that all the schools in the LEA are required to act the same way.
For example taking a child out for the afternoon is one missed session. Taking them out for four days is eight missed sessions. Who decides if that one UA session is enough for a fine? Because the law says it MAY. So is it LEA policy or the schools policy or up to the HT then?

However from what I've seen so far it's a complete lottery as to who get fined and who doesn't. Which isn't fair.

However from what I've seen so far it's a complete lottery as to who get fined and who doesn't. Which isn't fair

Hardly a "complete lottery" since we can't know why some absences were passed as "exceptional circumstances" and others weren't. Life isn't always fair and it's perfectly possible to avoid a fine - just don't take children on term time holidays

Personally I think there's a lot in what Chocolate mentioned about increased fines; this would reduce the number who think "it's worth it financially even with the penalty" and avoid the terrible example this sets to the children

Speaking of which, I've STILL not seen anyone address the point about the impression this gives to the youngsters - looks like people prefer to avoid that one

"This is very new and people don't like new laws."

It's been in force since 2003. The only change in 2013 was a modification to the time you have to pay, to bring it in line with other FPNs.

For those planning a criminal career, it might be best to aim for rape or grand larceny as people seem to get away with that more often.

I do think the £60 fine per parent is discriminating against two parent families. There are going to be a hell of a lot of families where the Dad is completely absent and can't be fined. I don't know, it just feels like you're penalised even more for bringing your kids up in a two parent family.

Mumsnet would be up in arms if a fine was increased on the grounds of being a single parent.

Stella and Tiggy, I totally agree that this is not a new law. It is the size and likelihood of being fined which is new, and which people need to get their heads round.
Tiggys examples of fines are similar to the one I gave for wearing seat belts in cars. That was new and people took time to adapt. They realised they wouldn't always get caught and punished, but the best way to avoid it, was to wear their seat belt. It took time for people to really see not wearing one as dangerous and wearing one just became the accepted norm.
I guess the government knows changes in attitude takes time. As I said before, I will be very interested to see what people's attitudes are like in 5 years and in the numbers taking term time holidays has fallen. It will be vital for this law to be properly enforced by LEAs. If HTs either allow holidays as exceptional or if LEAs don't follow up with enough fines, the message sent to people will not be clear enough to cause a widespread change in behaviour.

Surely then it's discriminating against involved/known fathers, whether they are in a relationship with the mother or not?

Yes, that's true Lilyaldrin.

Labour are missing a trick with this. I get really pissed off when this is discussed in the media as it always focuses on holidays for a week or so and the effect it has.

But a single day out is not going to affect education. And parents should not be worried because they want to take their child out for a day for a funeral, wedding or family event which can only take place on that day.

We have seen plenty of people on MN worried about single days off. Being asked to justify them and being refused as the event is not "important" enough. Meanwhile, I have worked with pupils who take 3 months off to go to Asia to see family and those who turn up if their parents can be bothered.

I think, to really get to the nitty gritty of it all, the fines should be much, much higher.

Then, those parents that insist term time holidays are educational, important, unavoidable, etc. will borrow the money to pay the fine because the holiday is so very important to their family.

Or, they might think, nah, it's not worth it and stick to a school holiday in a caravan in Cornwall. It would do wonders for our country's economy.

DS's school took him out for half a day to attend Young Voices. He missed 2 hours of schooling - but had a good time.

Should they be punished for making him miss school?

And you don't really want to know how much classroom learning is missed preparing for school plays

But they are learning different things - like how to stand round and wait for an hour till it's their turn. Surprised Gove hasn't banned Xmas celebrations and rehearsals as they waste too much learning time.

Wasn't talking about exceptional circumstances. Just who decides when a fine kicks in.

That's the problem though. It's not like getting away with speeding or shoplifting because you aren't caught. Attendance is down in black and white.
Which is why you need a fair and consistent system for implementing fines. As far as I can tell HT and LEA's can issue a fine for any UA of any length. Which would be OK but many actually don't. So that isn't a fair system.

I don't understand the fuss about this tbh and find some people so entitled.
Since when were we entitled to a holiday during term time.
Of course holidays are more expensive when the dc are on holiday, it has always been like this.
If you can't afford to go then save for next year or year after.

As for unfair, life is unfair.
Yesterday I saw the environmental people in town giving penalty fines for litter dropping. It was amazing who they were turning a blind eye to and who was being fined.
Most of those stopped had dropped a cigarette.
The old people were left alone. Parents with dc or babies in prams were ok. But the poor single people/couples over 18 were getting it.
They had obviously been told who to target.
However, I could hardly complain if I had broke the law and been fined as I know its law breaking to drop litter, irrespective of who else got away with it.

It is the size and likelihood of being fined which is new

The fine was £50 rising to £100 if not paid promptly when it was first introduced in 2004. It has now gone up to £60 rising to £120 if not paid promptly. The timescale for prompt payment was shortened from 28 days to 21 days last year. So the size hasn't really changed.

Fines must be applied in line with your LA's Code of Practise. This lays out in what circumstances parents should be fined. By and large these also have not changed.

What has changed is that the reference to 10 days authorised holiday in "special circumstances" has been removed from the regulations since schools complained that it was being abused, with many parents believing they had the right to take their children out of school for 10 days holiday a year and many schools wrongly feeling powerless to stop it. The change has led to some schools going to the other extreme and refusing to authorise absence even in circumstances that clearly qualify as exceptional.

As many parents are not aware of their LA's Code of Practise they fear being fined for a single day off. I do not know of any LA that would allow parents to be fined in such circumstances where attendance was otherwise good.

morethanpotatoprints

What would you do if you wanted to take your child off school because you were attending a family event and the only way to attend was to take your DC out of school for a day?

And the school said. No. We won't authorise it.

Is a fine fair?

If the Liberal Democrats are true to their name then I think a change back to how things were (limited holiday leave and other absence at discretion of HT) is something they could support.
Unfortunately the Lib Dems decided to entangle themselves with the Tories, so who is left to champion the causes of liberality ?

I am confused with the above. I suspect that the op is too.
So who decides whether what constitutes exceptional circumstances. An individual school - in which case the op may want to read their school policy on the matter.
Or the county LEA. In which case the op may want to ask the Head for a copy. Though both of those may be online?

tiggytape. Do you work for ofsted or an LEA or the government?

Despite the endless cries of "it's not faaaiiirrr!!!!!" let's not forget that folks who get fined for speeding/shoplifting/littering/taking children on unauthorised absence all have one thing in common: they're volunteers

Nobody has to speed/shoplift/litter, and apart from a few genuinely exceptional cases (which the system already allows for) nobody has to take their children on a term time holiday either - therefore there's not much point in whining about the penalty

"and any person with parental responsibilty who ignores this is guilty of an offence even if they don't live with the child"

I feel this is a) unreasonable
and b) will cause further tension in already difficult relationships between separated parents

These aren't my circumstances ATM so it's not personal BTW