To say that Owen Jones's 'Agenda for Hope' is a bloody brilliant idea..?

[Scarletohello]

www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/owen-joness-agenda-for-hope-we-want-a-fairer-society--and-heres-how-we-can-achieve-it-9086440.html

The link will be active in the following post but essentially it is the proposals devised by many groups to create a fairer society for all...

Please read!

I am with Dahlen. I find becoming a mum has made me think a bit harder about politics than I did before because now I am having to answer questions like 'Mummy why is that man asking for money?' 'Because he doesn't have a home to go to love or enough money to get one', 'But everyone needs a home Mummy! Why doesn't he have enough money? I will give him MY money' ....4 year old potters off and gives homeless man a quid we were taking to the shop for a Kinder egg (which he LOVES). Makes yer think really, it does. Do I really want to explain to my child that some people are so poor that they have no home, not enough food and they are cold, wet and at risk of violence whilst others are as rich as Croesus? And if it bothers me explaining that, maybe it is because it is (whispers) wrong? Good on OJ for putting some ideas in the ring - Labour please take note!

No, I honestly wouldn't if the same choice (or lack of) applied to other parents as well.

How would that be enforced though Dahlen?

I recently asked my neighbors’ little girl what she wanted to be when she grows up. She said she wanted to be President some day. Both of her parents, are liberal Democrats, were standing there, so I asked her, ‘If you were President what would be the first thing you would do?’
She replied, ‘I’d give food and houses to all the homeless people.’
Her parents beamed with pride.
’Wow…what a worthy goal.’ I told her, ‘But you don’t have to wait until you’re President to do that! You can come over to my house and mow the lawn, pull weeds, and sweep my yard, and I’ll pay you $50. Then I’ll take you over to the grocery store where the homeless guy hangs out, and you can give him the $50 to use toward food and a new house.‘
She thought that over for a few seconds, then she looked me straight in the eye and asked, ’ Why doesn’t the homeless guy come over and do the work, and you can just pay him the $50? ‘ I said welcome to conservatism.

ocelot if your ds had worked for that money rather than receiving it as a free handout (as you would expect for a 4yo) he might be more reluctant to hand it over.

Imaginative empathy is absolutely needed in political life and is essential to changing people's lives.

Without it you get the sort of I'm All Right Jack, dog eat dog, divided society that this government seem to be fostering.

It's important that politicians have empathy with how things actually are rather than how they imagine them to be Janine. Why is Mary working in a supermarket for minimum wage? Is it because she's a poor downtrodden saintly matron who just needs a break? Or is she a coke addict who used to be wealthy but lost her job and money to her addiction and needs more complicated help? And why is her son unemployed? Lack of jobs? Undiagnosed learning difficulty?Low self esteem and emotional problems due to having a coke addict for a mother?

None of it is simple. Simple solutions won't work.

Ah, we're speaking at cross purposes. By imaginative empathy, I mean the capacity to empathise with people whose experiences are far removed from yours - that's where the imagination comes in. I don't mean in the creative, disconnected from reality sense.

Cailin - I don't know. I don't think it's a step that could be enforced overnight. I think it would have to be worked up to in a piecemeal fashion. Rome wasn't built in a day and all that.

To start with maybe a huge state-sponsored provision of bursaries and scholarships for children from ordinary/disadvantaged backgrounds to enable them to attend top private schools, with incentives (e.g. tax breaks) for such schools to take such children.

A mass restriction of university places back to the brightest and best, with places fully paid for by the state but available only for those who achieve good qualifications no matter how wealthy their parents.

While the old grammar schools weren't without their problems, they were good levellers in some ways and did a lot to encourage social mobility. Learning the lessons from what worked in those establishments would be a good place to start.

An end to internships and apprenticeships that no self-funding individual could ever hope to do because of the minimal/absent wages. That goes as much for the trades as it does for internships in trading companies.

MrsMorton - the problem with that little analogy is that the underlying premise is that everyone with money has worked hard to get it and that those those who work hard will always get money. There are plenty of people out there who work their guts out for very little. Your story also takes into account the very real problems responsible for a person ending up homeless in the first place - problems that may be social in origin and mean that person is incapable of leading a normal, self-sufficient life. Are only good happy workers worthy of basic human rights? (the proportion of homeless people with MH issues is off the scale)

Despite that, a recent study showed that those with lower incomes gave more to charity as a percentage of their income than those with greater incomes.

I want a real meritocracy, not one based on nepotism and croneyism. And that starts with equality of opportunity.

The state does not have a magic wand. It can't change crap parents into good ones, or eradicate substance abuse from family life. It can't generate a bottomless supply of money to transform the lives of all the needy. However, it can redistribute wealth just a little bit more fairly to improve the lives of the majority by just enough to allow them to help themselves in many cases.

Nepotism and croneyism are just about impossible to eradicate. Outright blatant promotion of unsuitable people just because they're such and such's daughter is self limiting as said daughter would be rubbish and do herself out of the job but people will always get jobs through connections and contacts. Humans are social beings who look out for their own. Jinny Loadsamoney will get that internship at her godmother's massive company same as Dave everyman will take on his niece as an apprentice as his garage. Academia is one big incest party - I got my job through my husband, he got his job through his friend. The stated purpose of conferences is "networking and collaboration" ie "finding friends who'll give you a job." That's why soxial segregation in schools is so detrimental - some people never get an "in" even though they're highly capable.

Calilin . it comes out in Social Identity Theory I. E Groups with a common cause to each other Old School Tie/ Family or Neighbours. This will never be eradicated as this is basic survival instinct from any human being to use whatever advantage they have.

I'm not naive - I know it can never be eradicated in the same way as we can never eradicate crime. That doesn't mean it can't be limited and controlled to an extent that allows most of society to flourish.

Yes but again how?

The question which no left-winger (Owen Jones included) can answer: look over the Channel. Compare the French economy (socialist) to the British economy (socialist, only very slightly less).

Even with the tiny difference in socialism between the two countries, the difference in economic direction over the last couple of years is pretty obvious in today's figures.

We can see the difference, right now, by looking at our closest neighbour. Yet the left don't seem to want to compare??

I've just given you some suggestions! It's not so much about outlawing current practices (which I agree won't work) but more pushing alternatives so that they become more commonplace and eventually the norm as people see the positive results they bring.

People said the NHS was a pipe dream. People said we could never have a black President. If you never try, you never succeed. It takes political will.

Yes right, because the only difference between France and the UK is that tiny stretch of water known as the English Channel and a language. There are no other geographical, historical, cultural, social, population numbers/demographics differences at all, are there!

France and the UK have broadly similar GDPs. As economies go, I think it is very natural to compare them. I would classify Germany, Australia, Canada and perhaps Italy in the same broad "type" of country.

I certainly wouldn't count the US (which has all sorts of advantages due to its economic exceptionalism), nor Japan/China/Russia/India/Brazil.

Oops yes sorry. Sorry to push the point but how would you feel (genuinely) if one of your children wasn't one of "brightest and best" and couldn't get into uni?

I'm not sure I want my DC to go to university anyway. I don't see it as the only route to financial success out there by any stretch. In fact with every passing year a degree is offering less of a financial reward. There are many people out there in trades who earn way more than a typical graduate.

If one of my DC wants to become a Dr obviously they'll have to go to Uni and I'll be vert proud. If they don't I think they would achieve a lot more through travel, volunteering opportunities (especially those in interesting fields) and a vocational qualification and I certainly would never encourage them to go to university just 'because'.

Fair enough. I'll have you as my erm person below the prime minister, you seem sensible.
What on earth is that person called? I can only think of the Irish word. Must go to sleep.

Longfingernails. Sweden, Norway Denmark and Finland have far higher rates of income tax, far more equal societies and are hardly hell on earth.