AIBU or is my friend? Fear of paedophiles

[aroundeverycorner]

I have n/c for this as I don't want to be outed, but am a regular poster.It's long, sorry

Bit of background. My best friend is lovely, and a brilliant mum to her kids (two boys and a girl) Our eldest DDs are the same age, in their last year of primary school. My friend comes from a 'good' family- very well to do and respectable- but in her teens and early twenties, was a bit of a wild child. Lots of partying, drugs etc. She was with a notorious drug dealer for 4 years and generally engaged in some very risky behaviour. On one occasion, she was raped when she had passed out at a house party, and this probably has a bearing on her behaviour now.

Fast forward. She is a devoted mum, but has always been especially paranoid about paedophiles. DH nicknames her 'Mrs Anything Could Happen' because that is her catch phrase. It goes beyond natural concern in my opinion. She won't let her children be alone in a car with anyone except her mother, father, husband, or one of her very close friends (me and about two other women). At a family reunion, she wouldn't even let her BIL take the children upstairs to play Xbox. She ripped into her husband on one occasion, when she found out that he had left eldest DS (8) alone in the kitchen with a workman for 5 minutes- the husband had only popped out to the garden shed to get something.

I have gently tried to point out to her how irrational these fears are, but it is very hard to argue with her, because she says things like 'everyone is a stranger' and 'how do you know someone ISN'T a paedophile' 'it only takes a few minutes for a child's life to be ruined' etc. She is also very against men- says they are all beasts and that even good men have something disgusting and animalistic in them, given half a chance

So far it hasn't had a massive impact on our friendship, because are children were at an age where it was to be expected that they would be kept close. However, our girls will be starting big school in September, and I have been working on allowing DD more independence and freedom. We live in a small, safe, comfortable town. I now allow DD to cycle to a friend's, to the shop, the park, and her grandparents, all within a mile, give or take. She got a basic mobile phone for Christmas, so she has that to use in case anything happens (though my mind runs more towards punctures than perverts)

On Friday, my friend's DD came round for tea. Thoughtlessly, I let the girls walk our puppy around our cul de sac. I have always allowed my children to play in the cul de sac to a certain degree- nothing noisy or extreme, because of the number of retired residents, but bicycles, roller skates etc. It is very, very safe and I didn't think twice about the puppy. They were gone maybe 10 minutes maximum, and that was only because they stopped and sat on the end wall for a little while (I could see them the whole way around)

Anyway, friend found out when she came to pick up her DD, and practically had a panic attack in my hall. Anything could have happened, bottom of cul de sac is too far away from my house, the girls could have been bundled into a van before I got stop them, how could I take such a risk etc. I apologised, but pointed out that I really didn't think that they were in any danger. Friend went on long rant about 'the world' and about how it was a horrible and terrifying place, and we couldn't take any chances, and made mention of her rape as proof of the awful things that can happen.

This is where I am really upset at myself and should have kept my mouth shut. Friend often refers back to the awful people she used to associate with in her younger days, when she was with the drug dealer, in a 'the things I've seen/what people are capable of' way, and uses this as her reasoning for her overprotection of her children.

So on this occasion, I said that she shouldn't compare the two scenarios, because that was at a time in her life when she was keeping really dodgy company, and was around some truly awful people, but that there was no reason to think that her DD would ever be in situations like that- I mean, most girls don't go out with drug dealers and therefore do not have all sorts banging their front door at 3am, waving knives around and looking for a fix!

However, my friend took this to mean that she had brought her rape on herself, because of the company she kept. I absolutely did not mean this, and feel awful that she thought that is what I was implying. Tried to explain to her, but she was having none of it, got her DD, (girls had been in another room watching TV) and left.

I don't know what to do now. I am sorry for upsetting her, but I'm not sure what I said was unfair. I worry about how her DD will cope at school in September, and what it will mean for our friendship and that of our girls

OH no! how very very unfortunate, look neither of you are being BU

have not read whole thread, but I think an apology along the lines of "I appreciate you have different fears due to different experiences, and I am so sorry you went through what you went through. I have a different fear level, an and I am mortified you think i was implying you bought it on you"

I do think she would bebefit from some therapy to process, as she is clearly will carrying alot of upset, but dont mention that just yet maybe!

I clearly wasn't talking about the rape though was I?

Her husband works very long hours. He is a nice man and he clearly loves her very much, but I get the impression he feels very out of his depth with her at times.

I don't know how she reconciles her view of men with her sons. I think, because they are still children, she hasn't been faced with that conundrum yet. I don't know how it will pan out when they are older.

It is hard. Once my DH offered to run her DD home (very short journey) and she refused. Of course I knew it was because of her worries, but it was quite difficult to accept that to her, my DH was included in the list of 'potential child abusers' purely because he was a man. So it must be even more difficult for her own extended family.

I'm not sure about some sort of personality disorder. Sometimes she is very relaxed and easygoing, and surprises me by allowing her children to do things that I would have expected her to ban, then the next time I see her she will be hyper and anxious over things I wouldn't even think of.

I don't know how I will bring the conversation round to counselling/therapy, but I think she needs it. She was talking a few weeks ago about how disgusted she was that the secondary school bus doesn't pick pupils up from their houses- they have to wait at the bus stop, and she won't have her DD doing that, so she is going to drive DD to school, which in turn will make the boys drop-off at the primary awkward.

By the way, OP, by all means help if you can BUT bear in mind this is probably too much for you to sort out. So don't feel you have to, or have failed if you don't. You are a friend, not a counsellor.

Good luck to all of you.

Hope you've got some good advice that will ultimately help you all. On the other hand there's a lot of very personal details here now that would, I think, make her and her family identifiable to people in your community that know you. Personally I would now be asking for the thread to be deleted.

she definately needs counselling, poor her, and poor you as I can completely see how her even having your DH in that category is upsetting

I think you have to be very brave and sensitive and suggest it, she must as some level know its not normal

and yes you might have a fall out, but sometimes people have to do whats the right thing?? and agree that for her having son, if nothing else she should do it for them (that could be your opening??)

She sounds like very hard work to me. You have done your best to understand her attitude to risk. She is projecting her own insecurity on to her children, which will not do them any good. She needs to get over these insecurities for her own and her children's sake.

If anything, I think you are being incredibly supportive already. She must be exhausting -and exhausted. She expects you to play by her own irrational rules whilst disregarding your perfectly rational ones.

If you want to keep her as a friend I would apologise for your remarks if you feel you need to. I also think you should expect an apology from her for her over-the-top reaction to your letting the girls walk the puppy.

Good luck.

It was an unfortunate comment, you know that.

I absolutely would not agree to look after her children again.

Her children, her rules that's fair enough. But you don't have to be at all involved with them.

I wouldn't.

It is hard when people have very different life experiences. I have knowingly met very few really dodgy people in my life. A friend was sexually harassed by strangers almost every day from 12 years ol where she lives. We both have very different views about risk as a result. Who is to say whose views are right? Was she just unlucky. Or was I lucky?

I like fromparistoberlin's suggested wording.
I dont read what you said as victim blaming (As I have read the posts that you were talking about several experiences, not her rape).
You are certainly making sound judgements about letting your dd do more to prepare her for moving to secondary. I know you always have to me more measured when looking after other peoples children, but to object to walking round the cul-de-sac is ridiculous, and I'm afraid anyone who said my dh wasnt allowed to be alone in a car with their dc wouldnt be doing any liftshares with my family. Now that is offensive.

OP isn't victim blaming and the friend sounds over anxious and like hard work. She is going to cause damage to her children, both her over protected daughter and her 'animalistic' boys (she needs to get that attitude changed ASAP). And where is her husband and how is he reacting to all this irrational bullshit?

If someone has had a bad experience then it's not surprising, and not their fault, that they overreact.

But that doesn't make the overreaction sensible. The logical conclusion to attempting to avoid all risk is to lock the kids in the basement and never let them out.

She can say what's needed to keep her friend happy, even apologise (though she did nothing wrong) but in the long run she may find that she has to keep their kids apart so that her own can live a reasonably independent life.

It's not up to the OP to change her friend, but she has to put her own kids first.

It sounds like your friend blames herself, and now feels she has to take responsibility for every sicko out there whom nobody has any control over. I agree that the rape's a red herring. Perhaps she can reason that given the circumstances it was an awful thing to happen but she was in with a vile crowd, and something else happened with someone respectable that she really trusted, a work colleague or something that's pushed her over the edge.

the cries of 'all men are beasts' are going to give her children a twisted perspective. Obviously she has had a crap life and met the wrong people, but if it is not to go to a new generation she needs help.

yes, there are evil people about. Yes, kids need to know. But the whole world is not evil.

but I don't know what you do about it.

You said earlier that your friend had a very over protective mother, and that this is perhaps why she went so wild when she got some independence.

(I too had an over protective mother, and I got into drugs and hung around with very dodgy people. I too was raped because I wasn't good at assessing risk and listening to my instincts.)

I'm worried that your friend is storing up problems for her daughter and also not dealing with her own unresolved issues.

The risks of a walk round a cul-de-sac where you can be seen from a window are far less than the risks of being mollycoddled until you don't know how to assess risk for yourself.

Could you talk with your friend about this? Maybe apologise for the misunderstanding, and start the conversation with that? Don't offer advice, just listen, and she may come to the right conclusions in her own time.

Your poor friend! And what a difficult situation for you!

Corner,

Good luck with the apology, I don't think you were totally unreasonable but definitely tactless.

If you do decide to talk about the wider issues of your friends attitude to risk I think it would be good to broach the idea that her overprotective mother contributed to her going off the rails and that you don't want history to repeat itself. As I'm sure you are aware, children need to learn how to assess and handle risk. I'd check out the NSPCC advice on keeping your child safe, so you have knowledge to back up the discussion. Explain that you worry that her daughter is going to be left behind/out.

I also wonder if finding some activity such as karate for both the girls would help reassure her.

I'd be honest with her, tell her you are concerned about her MH and anxiety. I really think that she would benefit from some therapy, perhaps you could suggest it.

I'd also try and talk to her OH - is he on board/aware with all this?

Finally as others have pointed out, its not your responsibility to change your friend - but nice if you can be there to support her getting help to change.

FWIW - extreme over protectiveness is a form of EA, I'm not suggesting you ring SS but keep that at the back of your mind.

Sorry long post, many moons ago I worked with children referred to me by SS because of similar circumstances.

I think you know where you were U in the conversation and in all good conscience you can apologise unreservedly for that, which will hopefully get things back on an even keel. But I honestly don't know where to go after that. I absolutely believe something happened in her childhood to make her be like this: I don't think it is linked to the fact she was raped. I do also worry about her boys. I'm not sure how she will be able to deal with them appropriately as they get older.

She undoubtedly would benefit from counselling, but I think given what's just happened between you, you shouldnt be the one to suggest it to her. Could you maybe talk to her DH about things?

OP, I fully expect to be flamed for this but I don't think YWBU either in what you said or what you allowed your friend's DD to do. It is not victim blaming to suggest that if you put yourself in risky situations then you run a higher risk of something bad happening to you. It absolutely does not excuse the abuser/rapist in anyway whatsoever. But it is undeniably true that you increase the risks.

And to suggest that you were out of order to let two 11/12 year old girls walk a puppy round your cul de sac whilst they were in full view is absurd. Yes there are dangers out there but you can't live your life in any meaningful way if you avoid each and every risk, no matter how small.

Your friend sounds like she needs professional counselling to reduce her unwarranted anxiety. I hope she gets it.

I worked for SS and, as a result, people disclose stuff to me a lot. In my friends and family there are people who have been sexually assaulted (including rape and including when they were children) by; family; peers; date; community worker; boyfriend; stranger.

I am very careful with DD as I know how very common sexual assault, child abuse and rape are. MN is full of people saying, "you're acting like it is around every corner". You know what? It is. However, your friend, She is also very against men- says they are all beasts and that even good men have something disgusting and animalistic in them, given half a chance is making fiends of friends and relatives. It will be hard for her DD to make healthy relationships if she picks up on her DM's feelings.

Neither of you is wrong, per se. I do think it might be a good idea to apologise for how she feels about the conversation.