AIBU or is my friend? Fear of paedophiles

[aroundeverycorner]

I have n/c for this as I don't want to be outed, but am a regular poster.It's long, sorry

Bit of background. My best friend is lovely, and a brilliant mum to her kids (two boys and a girl) Our eldest DDs are the same age, in their last year of primary school. My friend comes from a 'good' family- very well to do and respectable- but in her teens and early twenties, was a bit of a wild child. Lots of partying, drugs etc. She was with a notorious drug dealer for 4 years and generally engaged in some very risky behaviour. On one occasion, she was raped when she had passed out at a house party, and this probably has a bearing on her behaviour now.

Fast forward. She is a devoted mum, but has always been especially paranoid about paedophiles. DH nicknames her 'Mrs Anything Could Happen' because that is her catch phrase. It goes beyond natural concern in my opinion. She won't let her children be alone in a car with anyone except her mother, father, husband, or one of her very close friends (me and about two other women). At a family reunion, she wouldn't even let her BIL take the children upstairs to play Xbox. She ripped into her husband on one occasion, when she found out that he had left eldest DS (8) alone in the kitchen with a workman for 5 minutes- the husband had only popped out to the garden shed to get something.

I have gently tried to point out to her how irrational these fears are, but it is very hard to argue with her, because she says things like 'everyone is a stranger' and 'how do you know someone ISN'T a paedophile' 'it only takes a few minutes for a child's life to be ruined' etc. She is also very against men- says they are all beasts and that even good men have something disgusting and animalistic in them, given half a chance

So far it hasn't had a massive impact on our friendship, because are children were at an age where it was to be expected that they would be kept close. However, our girls will be starting big school in September, and I have been working on allowing DD more independence and freedom. We live in a small, safe, comfortable town. I now allow DD to cycle to a friend's, to the shop, the park, and her grandparents, all within a mile, give or take. She got a basic mobile phone for Christmas, so she has that to use in case anything happens (though my mind runs more towards punctures than perverts)

On Friday, my friend's DD came round for tea. Thoughtlessly, I let the girls walk our puppy around our cul de sac. I have always allowed my children to play in the cul de sac to a certain degree- nothing noisy or extreme, because of the number of retired residents, but bicycles, roller skates etc. It is very, very safe and I didn't think twice about the puppy. They were gone maybe 10 minutes maximum, and that was only because they stopped and sat on the end wall for a little while (I could see them the whole way around)

Anyway, friend found out when she came to pick up her DD, and practically had a panic attack in my hall. Anything could have happened, bottom of cul de sac is too far away from my house, the girls could have been bundled into a van before I got stop them, how could I take such a risk etc. I apologised, but pointed out that I really didn't think that they were in any danger. Friend went on long rant about 'the world' and about how it was a horrible and terrifying place, and we couldn't take any chances, and made mention of her rape as proof of the awful things that can happen.

This is where I am really upset at myself and should have kept my mouth shut. Friend often refers back to the awful people she used to associate with in her younger days, when she was with the drug dealer, in a 'the things I've seen/what people are capable of' way, and uses this as her reasoning for her overprotection of her children.

So on this occasion, I said that she shouldn't compare the two scenarios, because that was at a time in her life when she was keeping really dodgy company, and was around some truly awful people, but that there was no reason to think that her DD would ever be in situations like that- I mean, most girls don't go out with drug dealers and therefore do not have all sorts banging their front door at 3am, waving knives around and looking for a fix!

However, my friend took this to mean that she had brought her rape on herself, because of the company she kept. I absolutely did not mean this, and feel awful that she thought that is what I was implying. Tried to explain to her, but she was having none of it, got her DD, (girls had been in another room watching TV) and left.

I don't know what to do now. I am sorry for upsetting her, but I'm not sure what I said was unfair. I worry about how her DD will cope at school in September, and what it will mean for our friendship and that of our girls

The unconscious woman at the party was seen as an opportunity for those vile men. I suppose the mother doesn't want someone to see a young girl out alone on the street as an opportunity either.

I think a mother of sons who believes that all men are animals probably needs some sort of counselling before these ideas impact on her boys.

I think that she is being overprotective and that clearly what happened to hear has traumatised her as she brings it up to explain her point of view.

I would apologise for upsetting her and say that you absolutely think and know that what happened was not her fault. I know that you weren't victim blaming but that is obviously how she took it up.

I don't know how close you are, if you are very close maybe (at a later date when emotions are not running so high), you might have a quiet chat about how worried you are and how you can see how what happened is still affecting her so much, and wether she might consider talking to someone (maybe an organisation like rape crisis center might help).

I think adoptmama speaks a lot of sense.

She sounds as though she is still traumatised herself. And as adoptmama suggests, traumatised by the rape, by the out-of-control helplessness of her life then, and presumably by whatever put her there in the first place.

Generally, I think we all know that the way to deal with life's terrors is to (somehow) give our children the tools to deal with those terrible people and possibilities - whilst simultaneously not scaring them away from being open to experience, and the joy that life can hold.

It sounds really tough for all of you. I would find your position hard, to be honest. I'd find it hard not to say something, even if that something was only something gentle such as: "I've had counselling for X and found it very helpful ..."
But
any discussion of that period was never, really, going to go so well, I guess. With hindsight (yours) it is clear that she really hasn't got over it at all. Obvious, really, given her concern for her daughter, and the fact that any discussion of the past, and the rape, is land-mined.

I don't know if she was abused as a child. She always says she had an idyllic childhood, but that her mother was very overprotective of them also, and they were never allowed to visit schoolfriends houses, and she said she resented that a lot,which is why she went wild when she moved away from home.

I don't think it's victim blaming - if anything it is blaming the dubious characters that were in her life at the time and pointing out that hopefully her daughter will be lucky enough never to encounter people with such scant regard for her.
OP I can understand that it must be frustrating for you when you are trying to put aside the natural fears and apprehensions you have as a parent to allow your daughter to grow up, but if you want to stay friends with her then you will have to accept that that is how she has chosen to parent and you need to step back and let her.
You could apologise for upsetting her and explain that it wasn't your intention and that you were trying to be reassuring and you'll just have to hope that she has calmed down and realised that you didn't mean any offence.

You went against her 'rules' for lack of a better word, about what her children are allowed to do. Whether those rules are rational is not really the point, I think. You can't ignore the rules she puts in place for her children. It is a bit of a breach of trust.

I would apologise for doing that (emphasising the girls were in your sight all the time) and for the tactless comment, then take it from there.

I will see her tomorrow, so will apologise for upsetting her then.

I do respect her wishes, very much so- this lapse has been the first and hopefully the last. It has caused me to worry about the future though, when all her children are in secondary school. She will worry terribly.

The op isn't victim blaming. Honestly your friend sounds like hard work, you need yo have a proper chat because given your dd's ages this is bound to happen again as you allow freedom and she doesn't. Personally I'd distance myself as someone so suspicious of the world would wreck my head

Oh dear. I missed that bit about all men being animalistic.

I'm actually wondering why her husband is colluding with this. If she is truly as anxious as you describe, she is not well, has not been well for some time, and yet she has been with an adult partner for long enough to have a secondary age daughter.

Seriously, if she really is as you describe, she has needed some solid help for some time. It's shit that she is living with someone who is just standing by and watching her be this distressed.

What the hell is he doing???

Trust me, what she is trying to protect her DD from is far more damaging in her opinion than lack of independence. Until you have experience you have no idea.

She has sons? Does she talk about her men are all beasts/ potential rapists in front of them? I hope her male children will not grow up affected by their own mother's views of men.

I think that what you said to her was saying that but for her actions and choices, she would not have made herself vulnerable. I am not surprised she was deeply distressed by that. Tbh she has probably tortured herself with that for years. But it is false. The only person responsible for a rape is the rapist.

She cant protect her daughter from the world forever but you cant blame her for being afraid. Sadly, the more she keeps a tight hold the more she risks teenage rebellion.

I cant help coming back to the damage that can be done to young boys by a parent that hates men. It is a shame that has not been gently raised with her.

You need to offer grovelling apologies. It will be her choice whether or not to accept.

I work as a criminal lawyer.The Crown courts have about 10/12 trials each week in big court centres normally do with paedophiles invariably its a stepfather,uncle or close family friend.Its very rarely a stranger.

Good luck OP. It is a horrible situation, but perhaps with support from you and courage from her, some long term good can come out of it too.

She sounds extremely anxious and I can't imagine it being very easy for her (or her kids) to live in a constant state of hypervigilance.

The sad thing is that her fears are not unfounded, she has personal experience of how horrible the world is.

The most likely thing to happen is that her children will begin to rebel against the lack of freedom and end up going down the same route that she did.

I don't think you were victim blaming, but as she's a victim of rape she probably already does blame herself and believes it to be her fault because of the company she kept. So she has taken what you were saying and twisted it round to fit with what she thinks in her own head.

It must be very frustrating for you. Being worried about her while having to abide by the rules she imposes upon herself and her family.

I had a very middle class upbringing, too.

By the age on 23 I'd experienced child I knew well being murdered and also been good friends with a workmate who ended up being convicted of paedophile offences (obviously we're no longer friends, I hasten to add)

I don't think trying to make decisions based on one set of circumstances being 'nice' and 'middle class' and another being "big city" and "scary crowd" are how you assess risk.

Now, I'm not saying I would be terrified of my 10 year old walking a puppy around a cul-de-sac, just trying to point out that you can't be certain that you're children are safe just because you live in suburbia.

But anyway, back to the AIBU - I think you should have thought it through properly before you let her DD out - it's clear that you have really strong opinions on how your friend parents so I don't necessarily buy that you just didn't think it through or whatever.

You should just have said sorry instead of dragging up the company she used to keep and I'm not surprised you're upset with her.

I don't think that you should have said that, but you know that already. I would offer a simple apology.

However I think she is being ridiculous and stifling. two 1o yrolds and a dog going out for a short walk in their own street in the day is perfectly normal and lovely. Don't doubt that.

Trust me, what she is trying to protect her DD from is far more damaging in her opinion than lack of independence. Until you have experience you have no idea

I think while that is true, it is also rather unfair. You could say that to the OP if she were letting her 10 year old go and stay with Justin Bieber in California or something, but not because she's letting her walk, observed, round the cul-de-sac by her house. The OP is making different judgments about safety and risk from those her friend is making, but the OP's judgments don't sound naive or irresponsible.

Having a certain amount of confidence, experience and judgment is part of what keeps children safe anyway.

I agree, Buzzard.

It's also when you've experienced sexual abuse, and share that with other people, that you find out how many other people were abused or raped when young. It is far more common than many people think, because most people don't talk about it (even the court cases are a small percentage of actual cases).

I don't agree with being overprotective but it does really take some effort not to think about how common the threats are, and the friend could no doubt use some help with this.

not surprised she's upset with you

Does she not worry that her children will feel the same as she did having an overprotective upbringing and will therefore go wild and put themselves at more risk? I also think children who grow up in cotton wool end up scared of the world, this as they become adults can be obvious to certain people, the same way controlling men know how to find women with lower self esteem, and IMO makes children grow up more vulnerable. I agree the world can be dangerous, but you should teach your kids a balance. Confidence, awareness and an ability to look after themselves will give better protection. The girl walking down the street in the dark, holding her handbag tight, nervously looking around and checking her phone regularly is more likely to be mugged or attacked than the woman with her head held high, walking with intent but still paying attention to her surroundings.

Trust me, what she is trying to protect her DD from is far more damaging in her opinion than lack of independence. Until you have experience you have no idea.

What a ridiculous thing to say. I was raped and even I can see that the OPs friend is going completely OTT.

From reading the op I wondered if something had happened to her that sent her off trails and on a destructive path at a young age. If something happened in her family she may never speak about it and it explains paranoia even around family members. I feel for the bil.

I would apologise and make it clear to your daughter that if this friend visits they will have to stay in the house. I think they may drift apart in secondary school as your daughter spends more time out of the house unsupervised meeting friends etc. nothing you can do about it, I imagine many tears and upset during your friends daughters teenage years.

This is very difficult. She clearly has a personal past that must have lead to this behaviour. Have you asked her about it?

Well, read the thread about the 18 year gf of OP's son who isn't allowed to walk the 5 minute walk home EVEN IN BROAD DAYLIGHT. That's where this ends up. And what then- no university because it's too risky?

It is scary, but as children are going to be independent one day (one hopes) the whole thing has to be managed, gradually. I do hope OP's friend manages to do that, for her children's sake.