aibu to feel slightly on edge when I come across women in the full black burka?

[caroleharolde]

I just always feel slightly threatened, I know the vast majority of Muslims are lovely nonviolent people but.just this sight always unnerve me. Be honest, who hadn't felt a bit uncomfortable when passing by a huddle of the burqa wearers? Not trying to be racist, I'd feel the same if it were Christians or Jews or any other religion wearing it.

Freudian - I'm yet to read anything informative or insightful. I won't hold my breath

all you've done indigo is inform me that the reason they are worn is because a superior being has commanded it. well done.

By you I should add

freudian do you assume that anyone who disagrees with you is stupid? I think you have a massive belief in your own abilities as well as being quite rude.

UKatlast - My ancestors chose no such thing, they had their clothes stolen and replaced with cumbersome Western clothes and hairstyles to 'civilize' us by force, our children and family stolen.

Seeing as Western feminism's roots and fight came from interactions with American Indigenous nations, particularly the Iroquois nation, the idea that the West is somehow the height of freedom after it has stolen and continues to steal the freedoms and lives of others is a real slap in the face to those whose ancestors were killed and those who still fight for their freedom and justice. You may not be "personally responsible", but you benefit from the system and are supporting it with that attitude.

There is a lot of ignored / unanswered questions still.....

gordy i'm surprised you feel that there is a need for a refuge when you seem to believe all women are free to make their own choices without fear.

I had a job many years ago where I was covered sort of similar to the niqab. Everyone dressed exactly the same. Hood totally covering hair, mask so that l the eyes could be seen, long overalls and gloves. It actually was quite liberating to not be judged on clothes, makeup (not allowed), hair, your "prettiness". The working relationships between the men and the woman was fantastic. We had no problems really communicating, seeing someone's eyes and everyone dressed identical. Wasn't keen on the mask as it was a bit uncomfortable.

So I can imagine covering yourself up and refusing to play societies game of what is acceptable to look attractive in our eyes could be quite liberating. I mostly wear comfortable and practical clothes with flat shoes. Tonight I will be wearing a smart dress, high heels (which I know will hurt), make up etc because it is expected, if I want to look attractive I have to conform to a degree, you can bet we have been indoctrinated and wonder how little choice we excerise ourselves. The men will be wearing comfortable clothing and comfortable shoes as usual, in fact the men will be much more comfortable and covered up than the women - who are the mugs?

oh dear if we start down the route if wrings to our ancestors I guess we all have a story to tell don't we. scots, Irish, welsh here in the UK.

please keep the arguments to the hear and now.

well shandy i disagree with your choice to conform to that idea of attractiveness. i wouldn't wear heels for anyone.

fancy hardly on a par with burka wearing in Afghanistan though was it?

you seem to believe all women are free to make their own choices without fear sorry could you give me one example where I have said that

I have actually, if you read my posts' said time and again that there are many women forced to behave in ways they don't wish to and that that is wrong and should be stood up to

I just refuse to believe any one group is more oppressed than another

My views are based on my experiences and the campaigns and actions I have been involved in both directly and indirectly

You know why people end up with bigoted views because they draw their own conclusions rather than seeking wider perspectives on a topic.

First second and third rule of MN

You must only talk about unofficial sanctioned topics. Woe betide anyone wanting to discuss something they feel unsure about to gain other views.

Indigo

Well done for trying to dispell the myth and state that as a Muslim women, your decision about what to wear is based upon your own individual faith, not as a response to mysogenisic or sexist pressure.

Well done for trying to show you are capable if making your own decisions and how aggressive so called feminism actually negatively impacts your life and makes it harder for you to live your life as you see fit.

Well done for trying to explain that rather than your husband being mysogenisic, he is in fact more in favour of you compromising on your faith in order to appease the so called feminists and poorly educated.

So sad that you felt the need to consider carefully whether to name change for your post.

So sad that because they could never accept they are wrong, the extreme and aggressive so called feminists on this thread will never accept that you are free to make your own choices, that your husband isn't a misogenist, and they will continue to delude themselves that you are conditioned to be accepting of misogeny that you can see what's their 'truth' is.

I've said it a number of times before on mumsnet: in my experience, other women have always been the most opinionated about my life choices, far more than men have been. Feminism is the greatest opposition to women's freedoms to make our own choices (unless our 'choices' tally with theirs!) without fear of ridicule or being oppressed.

still no answers to why cover up the face and body? why men don't? why female children do and male children don't?

this is your liberated women? this is a free choice?

oh and I have always worked closely with and at time for refuges - for the past 26 years

Indigo your post makes far more sense than all or any of the posts saying a niqab is liberating or empowering.

On the one hand as an atheist ( born in a Catholic family)who has never, ever believed in a god, I don't understand what you are saying at all. The concept of pleasing a god is incomprehensible, and why if he exists wearing a niqab should please him is equally incomprehensible

On the other hand as I find all belief in gods and the weird things some Christians think they need to do to keep their one happy I can follow your argument it is your belief in thinking it pleases your god. I'm puzzled why you think it should, but so be it.

So from that perspective it makes far more sense than the "liberating and empowerment" arguments which are trotted out to counter western feminist objections.

so the Muslim women you know - are they subjugated and oppressed and forced to do things?

this implies to me that you don't believe they are and are actually mocking the idea.

A bit off the bun fight point, but, as someone who grew up in a heavily Muslim (North Indian and Pakistani) area, I have noticed that the young girls all wear the Hijab now, whereas when I was at school it wasn't worn at all. Instead they would have a scarf (dupatta? is that right?) that could be pulled over the hair but usually wasn't.
I also see that the current Hijab style is very bouffant and quite sexy looking, and it seems to be a mish mash of saying "I identify as a Muslim" and " I look hot".
I have also noticed quite a few women in the Niqab, whereas that used to be almost unheard of. Even there though, the niqab wearers seem to have really done their eyes, and again, it looks kind of sexy , huge lashed dark eyes peeping over a veil!
(I don't think that is the intention though!)
I think things changed after 9/11, noticeably, and wearing hijab/niqab seems to be more of a statement, and definitely more one that women are making by themselves, but that is just my perception.
Like it or not, the niqab has to be seen as a somewhat political statement in the current climate of Islamaphobia.

I think Body it's because they believe their faith wishes them to - and they choose to follow that faith and to cover up

I think that answer may have been given before - a few times

no I do not think anyone who disagrees with me is stupid, but I have seen a huge amount of ignorance on this thread and a refusal to want to try to understand the opinion from those who have come on here and told you why they make that choice

and yes I thought that post was stupid and very funny

No I am mocking your continued view that the entire female Muslim populations needs protecting from itself

also gordy you know how impressed you were at indigo's post? what about the bit where she stated that Muslim women cover up because their lord wants them to? doing something because it's what someone else wants? is that alright with you?

joysmum great so no woman is compelled to cover up because one poster shared her experience.

can I refer you to the whole thread wher I think you will see the militant aggression is actually on the so called pro choice side here.

when have i said that? i feel as though i have said HUNDREDS of times that i don't think all Muslim women are? Jesus...