AIBU to think this is a really shitty way to behave?

[ballinacup]

An acquaintance was talking very proudly today about how she has evicted her tenants. She's done it completely illegally by sneaking in whilst they were out and changing the locks.

Yes, they were shitty tenants, but I still think making someone homeless without notice is a bit off. However, it gets worse.

She will not give the tenants their possessions. She finds it hilarious that the couple have called her on several occasions in tears, begging for their five month old's clothes/bottles/cot. Acquaintance's sister is expecting so she's given all of their stuff to her.

She stormed into the office fuming today as the tenants are taking legal action against her. Aibu to hope she gets into serious trouble for, essentially, stealing from a baby?

Haven't read the whole thread as in a rush but if they report her she is looking at a prison sentence - no messing, the Courts hate this!

There's too much emotion involved for a lot of landlords who are defined as 'accidental'. I agree largely with Etoo that at the end of the day, renting out a property is a business. This LL has not followed proper procedure and if the OP's post is factually 100% correct, then an illegal act has been committed.

But as the partner of a LL (he owns 20+ houses), who has experienced many lengthy evictions, deliberate non-payment of rent for months (usually HB payments being withheld), wilful destruction of property, I have become increasingly cynical over the years about all these fragile tenants. The councils are not interested in discussing tenants non-payment, even when it's HB related and I've sat through several cases where a judge has overturned a legal eviction process in favour of the tenant because judges have the discretion to do that.

I am also a LL of just one property (my former home) and am lucky to have had amazing tenants for 3 years who I've had a great relationship with. The tenants before them didn't always pay the rent on time, but I knew why and we were always in contact.

The main difference between me and my partners properties is location and the demographic profile of tenants. I'm trying not to stereotype but the large proportion of his HB tenancies go bad in some way.

There are good and bad on both sides, and when it's personal (as many LLs cannot help but feel), emotions invariably run high.

Unless I'm mistaken the OP has never once said anything about HB. But don't feel like you have to keep your prejudices bottled up.

No, she hasn't said anything about HB and I didn't say that she did. The point I'm making is that landlords can't be blamed for trying to minimise their financial risk when it's clear from this thread that so many people have such a shitty attitude towards their landlords and think that it's acceptable not to pay your rent.

The landlord in this case has clearly gone about things the wrong way, but they are only in the situation where they have felt the need to do that because the law is weighted so heavily in favour of tenants, even when they are so obviously in the wrong morally.

It's crazy that we have laws to protect tenants who don't pay or who damage property. Maybe if the law was based on common sense the situation as it stands wouldn't be so divisive.

We pay tax out of social obligation to house people that can't do it for themselves, there is no good reason why landlords should be responsible for housing people who don't pay rent.

I don't think it's acceptable to not pay rent at all. But sometimes, circumstances mean that it isn't always possible. Weekly pay, and monthly rent, for example, can be tricky. And it's not always as simple as saying "make sure your rent is covered first"

How quickly should LLs be able to evict tenants? What happens if those tenants have nowhere else to go? What if they haven't got the extra money for a deposit on a cheaper place? Chuck them on the streets? I know there are some exceptions, but generally, people aren't just refusing to pay rent.

Maybe those LLs who seem to persistently have bad tenants should rethink their application and checking systems.

Wow, shocking that people could read random 's story and think that the most significant point is not paying the rent (rather than say, losing a baby, having another extremely ill and losing a job as a result)

I know, I had to scroll back up to see if I'd got the stories mixed up and it was two people but nope!

There are bad tenants, but there are also bad landlords.

It's crazy that we have laws to protect tenants who don't pay

For real? What would you like to see, rent isn't in the bank at 9am on rent day so the tenant and family lose their human rights and can be forcibly removed from their home and made to live on the streets?

What other missed payments should result in the legal rights of the payer being revoked? Mortgages? Credit cards? Water bills? Or is it once again as I rather suspect that those things are "different" because those are things that proper people pay, not just icky tenants.

Yes, Randy, because only those on benefits don't pay rent.

So those of you saying tenants have too many rights, would you take the same attitude towards people with mortgages? Miss a few payments, or pay late and that should be it - the bank takes the house back and kicks you out? And it's your own fault for not having lots of savings ( because clearly it's rank irresponsibility to dare to have a child without 6 months salary saved.)

Just curious.

If they want their baby to gave a nice life, then pay your rent on time

Yes, a nice life like clothing, food and a bed to sleep in (clothes/bottles/cot).

WTF?

well if its any consolation (a) they will actually get council flat far quicker than otherwise, as people that have been made homeless go straight to the top of the list , esp with a baby

but what a bitch, agree

Being persistently late with rent should not warrant this shockingly disgusting behaviour. I am astounded that she has given their baby things away to her own sister.

If she wanted them out she should have done it the legal way. No sympathy here. I have had my fair share of shitty landlords (as in all of them that we have had) and there needs to be more of a comeback for them for thinking they can behave exactly as they like.

OP, yes, if you can speak to the council or anyone (like the non emergency 101 number for advice, it is illegal what she has done) do it.

That is a common term found in an AST but your typical AST is full of all sorts of legally unenforceable rubbish anyway, such as demanding the tenant professionally cleans the property before they leave

However if the landlord can prove via the inventory photos that the tenants have left the property in an unnaceptable state of cleanliness the tenant is at risk of having part of their deposit witheld. You would have to be really manky though to not be able to bring it up to an acceptable standard through general cleaning before departure.

I don't think it's acceptable to not pay rent at all. But sometimes, circumstances mean that it isn't always possible. Weekly pay, and monthly rent, for example, can be tricky. And it's not always as simple as saying "make sure your rent is covered first"

I think it's reasonable for a LL to make allowances for this for a certain amount of time but then it really is up to the individual to get their affairs in order. My mortage company would give me some leeway for an agreed amount of time, say 3 months or so depending on the circumstances. After that I would be expected to get my affairs in order.

What happens if those tenants have nowhere else to go? What if they haven't got the extra money for a deposit on a cheaper place? Chuck them on the streets? I know there are some exceptions, but generally, people aren't just refusing to pay rent

This is what the benefits agency and council are there to help with. I don't think my mortgage provider would give a shit about where I was going to go or whether I had a deposit for a new place after they repossessed my house. I think this is why it's important to work out an agreement with your LL rather than just ignore calls/letters like someone upthread did.

Maybe those LLs who seem to persistently have bad tenants should rethink their application and checking systems.

Personally, I find that credit checks are a waste of time. They can only advise you that an individual's circumstances enables them to pay not that they are actually going to pay. I have had tenants on benefits who haven't missed a payment and others who would not pay at all. I've had full time employed/non claimants who haven't paid either.

expat Yes, Randy, because only those on benefits don't pay rent.

?

However if the landlord can prove via the inventory photos that the tenants have left the property in an unnaceptable state of cleanliness the tenant is at risk of having part of their deposit witheld. You would have to be really manky though to not be able to bring it up to an acceptable standard through general cleaning before departure.

My point was really to do with unenforceable contract terms - in the case of cleanliness, the legal position is that the tenant must the leave the place in the same or better condition as they found it minus reasonable wear and tear. So if it was spotless when they moved in, they need to clean it to a similar standard, but if it was a filthy tip, they are entitled to leave it a filthy tip when they leave.

Despite this many landlords use insert a contract term that tenants must "professionally clean" the property before they leave. This is absolutely unenforceable - the place just needs to be in comparable condition to how they found it. There is all sorts of this kind of rubbish in ASTs these days, which is really indicitive of the sad state of affairs where the private rental industry is a cowboys playground.

The thing is, the LL in question wasn't being unreasonable to be pissed off that the tenants weren't paying rent. But she is absolutely being unreasonable and fucking stupid to have done what she did.

We evicted a tenant (legally I might add - through all the correct avenues). He owed us £7000 in both unpaid rent and damage to the property. Our LL insurance had been invalidated by the fact he would not allow access to the property to the company to check the boiler to give the gas safety certificate.

It eventually came down to bailiffs. He was violent on eviction - despite the bailiff being a very kind man - to both the bailiff and tried to attack me. He made threats against our child so I had to get the police involved. Eventually there was a court order that he wasn't allowed to enter the property at all.

We boxed up all his stuff and had it ready for him to make arrangements to collect. He suggested we hire a van and deliver it to him. Needless to say, after having made it available for his agent to come and collect as we were required to do, he didn't come so we sold what we could and binned the rest.

I don't think anyone would criticise you for that fleta, you acted reasonably throughout. Absolutely worlds away from what the ll in the op did.

Speaking as a LL I think it is a disgusting way to behave. No matter what the LL has been put through by tenants the law is there for a reason and she should follow the guidelines unless she wants to end up in shit. Believe me, I have had some really shitty tenants but that is one of the cons of being a LL, you have to take the rough with the smooth.

Not giving a baby back their possessions and then giving them away, wow, she has lost any moral high ground she may have had - absolutely dispicable behavior.

I'm rapidly going off the idea of hiving off and letting the smaller section of the house!

FruitSalad - thank you. You'd think, right? I've taken an absolute bashing on here from various posters aghast that I had "deprived someone of their home".

The problem is feckless landlord's absolutely give all LLs a bad name.

I would really like to see the rental system tightened on both sides. I would like the court system to be quicker for tenants who are taking the piss (we had screenshot after screenshot of him on holidays abroad, weekends away, etc). I would also like it to be legal for LL's to be able to gain reasonable access and NOT have it unreasonably withheld - for example for checks of heating system, boilers etc. I would like to see it be done on a yearly basis on a date agreed with the tenant e.g. 1st September every year. Far easier to maintain when you have regular access.

It would also help if more people on both sides of the fence were more informed. The number of times I've seen a soap opera run a storyline in which a character is thrown out on the streets, bags in the gutter without any implications for the LL. So viewers probably think it can happen.

Personally, I think it would be better if letting properties was only really possible on a large scale - so companies owning multiple properties. It would take the emotion out of it, make it possible for losses to be better dealt with (and I think it's a fact that there will be losses in any business), and make it easier to the government to legislate sensibly.

Fundamentally, the relationship between a LL and tenant will always be an unequal one. Can you imagine a single private individual being your only source of buying food, or water, or electricity? It's rife with problems before you've even started.

Fruit As someone who is stuck in private rentals at age 41 with two children I couldn't agree more...it's fucking AWFUL to have your security at the hands of someone else. I've looked at properties in which private landlords were obviously emotionally invested in...think sheds full of their deceased Dad's tools which they wouldn't move "It's too painful...do you really need the shed?" erm...for 750 pounds a month I WANT THE SHED YES!

And the woman who showed me round her cottage "I lived here for twenty years with my ex husband...so it means a lot to me...thats why I don't want you to take any of the pictures down or put any more up."

Erm...why not wrap the house in clingfilm and pay the mortgage yourself then!

I would LOVE a council house...they were all frigging sold in the 80s and 90s....I would love a housing associan house..."Because you have a private rental you are not our concern and those in hostels are."

I hope she is taught a lesson in a financially painful way !

Crappy tenants are an occupational hazard of being a landlord but laws are in place to protect tenants not just good ones.

A couple of years ago GMTV ran a story about a landlord who had a problem with a "squatter", who turned out to be a tenant who hadn't moved out at the end of their fixed term (something to do with council rules on intentional homelessness i think). They didn't once describe the tenant as a "tenant", but used the word "squatter" over and over again. Asiding from harassing the tenant with a film crew, the presenters also said stuff like "surely you can just cut off their utilities to make them leave". Even the local MP got involved campaigning to increase more draconian laws to deal with such "squatters". So yes it's not surprising people seem to think tenants are subhuman scum who apparently should have no legal rights.

In time though tenants rights will have to be strengthened because in 10,20 years time private tenants will make up a significant proportion of the electorate and politicians will have to stop siding themselves with landlords.

When you say continually late with the rent - was that, for example, always lagging behind but paying up eventually so that no more than a month was outstanding at any one time?