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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think this is a really shitty way to behave?

309 replies

ballinacup · 22/01/2014 19:24

An acquaintance was talking very proudly today about how she has evicted her tenants. She's done it completely illegally by sneaking in whilst they were out and changing the locks.

Yes, they were shitty tenants, but I still think making someone homeless without notice is a bit off. However, it gets worse.

She will not give the tenants their possessions. She finds it hilarious that the couple have called her on several occasions in tears, begging for their five month old's clothes/bottles/cot. Acquaintance's sister is expecting so she's given all of their stuff to her.

She stormed into the office fuming today as the tenants are taking legal action against her. Aibu to hope she gets into serious trouble for, essentially, stealing from a baby?

OP posts:
etoo · 25/01/2014 14:27

They have every right to expect prompt payment regardless of their circumstances.

Sorry but I really wish people would properly read the posts concerned before knee jerk reactions like this and Brian's post that completely miss the salient points.

The key word Alisvolatpropiis used was need. Not "expect", not even "want". All these words have distinct, specific meanings in the English language, so if you are going to read my post and arbitrarily replace "need" with "expect" then you are reading and responding to a post that is not there and a view that nobody expressed.

Debate can be done to a much better standard than this.

Wibblypiglikesbananas · 25/01/2014 14:44

So all the tenants who don't pay rent on time - in some cases, it's quite likely they wouldn't have has a home in the first place if it hadn't been for an entrepreneurial private landlord...

Yes, landlords do need rent on time etoo. Interesting that people in general make an effort to pay a mortgage on time, because they don't want to be affected by a bad credit rating, but when it's rent, landlords are often seen as fair game for pissing about.

Another tale, previous tenant buying house in the area we own in, so upwards of £500,000 quite likely. Respectable, decent jobs, rented from us for a year whilst the sale was going through. As per usual, any queries fixed by us or our agent within a day, two at most.

Their complaints included: - they needed a new bathroom, a new kitchen, new curtains (didn't like the old ones apparently), seriously, the rental agent thought they were ridiculous, as did we. They'd rented as seen and there was nothing wrong with the condition of anything - it just wasn't to their taste...

They left the property without paying their last month's rent, left it filthy and mouldy as they had clearly never ventilated (I'd lived there for 5 years previously and never had this issue) and the new carpets that had gone in just before they moved in were trashed. People talk about landlords treating tenants with contempt but tenants are equally guilty of the same thing. And in this case, these people had more than enough funds - just thought I was fair game as I was a 'landlord'.

RandyRudolf · 25/01/2014 14:59

etoo. A landlord has every right to need or want their payment on time.

Your tone is very condescending, I think you may be getting a little it worked up by this debate since it doesn't appear to live up to your standard of debating Hmm

So all the tenants who don't pay rent on time - in some cases, it's quite likely they wouldn't have has a home in the first place if it hadn't been for an entrepreneurial private landlord

Fair point wibbly

etoo · 25/01/2014 15:02

Yes, landlords do need rent on time etoo. Interesting that people in general make an effort to pay a mortgage on time, because they don't want to be affected by a bad credit rating, but when it's rent, landlords are often seen as fair game for pissing about.

Sorry but again, this is pisspoor debate,conflating two issues for some reason I don't quite understand.

Yes, of course tenants should pay on time,and its not on for them to mess the landlord about. This is an entirely different concept to the point I made. I'll elaborate shall I since what is a fairly simple point seems to be beyong the grasp of some people for some reason.

The reason a landlord who NEEDS (yes, the word is need) rent on time has no business being a landlord, is because given that they need the rent on time it can reasonably be assumed to be because of some personal financial catastrophe that would occur should they not have the rent on the expected date.

It therefore logically follows, that they do not have any spare money for contingency that could be used to meet their landlording obligations such as fixing any expensive maintenance issues that could crop up at any time. Therefore they do not have the ability to meet their legal obligations if any hiccups should occur. Therefore they have no business being a landlord.

RandyRudolf · 25/01/2014 15:04

I'm thinking the bank won't need my mortgage payment on time this month. After all, we all know or rather presume banks are stinking rich.

You are we to presume someone doesn't need or want their payment. It is none of our business. Our only business is to pay them, on time.

RandyRudolf · 25/01/2014 15:08

It therefore logically follows, that they do not have any spare money for contingency that could be used to meet their landlording obligations such as fixing any expensive maintenance issues that could crop up at any time. Therefore they do not have the ability to meet their legal obligations if any hiccups should occur. Therefore they have no business being a landlord

You have absolutely no idea of the financial set up of a landlord. You don't know what they have in place to deal with these scenarios. When I had a benefit claiming tenant I could not get insurance to cover loss of rent yet I had a good policy to cover a broken boiler etc. The two situations are completely different. You assume too much.

ShephardsDelight · 25/01/2014 15:09

Angry Shock Angry

I would be making an anonymous call to the police, that is just sickening, a horrible thing to do, with a baby? Sad
that's gonna stick with me for the rest of the day.
I don't say this often but throw away the key.

etoo · 25/01/2014 15:11

Insurance does not cover everything. And maintenance issues are not the only possible expense.

ShephardsDelight · 25/01/2014 15:12

She could be a nasty person, or just absolutely desperate and angry.

^^

You have to be joking, taking a babys items and giving them to her sister , why the baby is hungry, homeless without clothes and somewhere to sleep?

the only word for that is evil.

RandyRudolf · 25/01/2014 15:14

So you know every insurance product on the market do you Hmm

You clearly have no knowledge of being a landlord.

Southeastdweller · 25/01/2014 15:18

Just awful. I would happily call the police on this bitch.

RandyRudolf · 25/01/2014 15:18

And maintenance issues are not the only possible expense.

Please expand oh knowledgeable one.

Wibblypiglikesbananas · 25/01/2014 15:19

Accused of 'pisspoor debate' Hmm - attack being the best form of defence and all that...

amicissimma · 25/01/2014 15:25

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

loveisagirlnameddaisy · 25/01/2014 16:51

Etoo, I would be interested to know if you've ever been a LL? (I'm guessing not). You talk of people having 'no right' being a LL but what about the many many people who have fallen into it for reasons beyond their control? Negative equity, unable to sell yet they have to move location, new job, family reasons etc etc. It's very simplistic to say that these people shouldn't rent their properties unless they can cope with the potential financial hazards.

BrianTheMole · 25/01/2014 17:56

Debate can be done to a much better standard than this.

Yes I agree Etoo. So I suggest you try a little harder. Because you're failing dismally at the moment.

anothernumberone · 25/01/2014 19:35

Yes love that was the situation I was conveying earlier. That situation is rife in Ireland and I have no doubt that it exists in the UK too. Often these people are tenants elsewhere so they exist between the 2 stools of tenant and ll. It would never occur to me that it would be unacceptable to pay rent late. It would be my priority we have taken massive cuts in salary and huges rises in taxes here and still our personal finance cuts have come from non rent sources food bill, entertainment anything other than the roof over our head. We also have moved to lower costing accommodation to ensure we could pay rent. On the other hand we had 2 sets of tenants in our own house who took the piss completely paying us. The other 2 sets of tenants were a dream. We have re painted the house between tenants, meet all landlord obligations, fix everything promptly always so I lose patience with shit tenants. Thankfully the bad tenants moved out early for a variety of reasons.

anothernumberone · 25/01/2014 19:36

Unacceptable = acceptable oooops

FruitSaladIsNotPudding · 26/01/2014 08:00

I think the point Etoo is making, and I agree, is that if your finances are in such a state that a late payment of rent will tip you over the edge, you really shouldn't be a LL. If that is the case, it's likely you will struggle to meet your obligations re. Maintaining the place, and should you get a bad tenant, evicting them legally will finish you off.

Don't BTL mortgages have some sort of financial standard you have to meet? I realise you need a certain amount of equity, but is that all?

ballinacup · 26/01/2014 08:25

Well late on Friday afternoon, acquaintance received a call from someone. Not sure if it was the police or a solicitor but it seems the tenants are fighting back.

OP posts:
BrianTheMole · 26/01/2014 11:40

Yes I see the point etoo is trying to make, and yes it is sensible to have some money set aside for a few months late payments and ongoing repairs. However it is not as simplistic as this. When a tenant refuses to pay their rent, then this goes above and beyond that.

To go though the legal channels to evict someone is a minimum of 4 to 5 months. The landlord has to wait for two months non payment before issuing a section 8 notice, then they have to wait for the court date. Even when the court agrees that the tenant must move out, it doesn't mean they actually will by the dates given. Which means more time is dragging on, which means continued non payment of rent.

If you add to that the damage that some tenants cause, (malicious damage is generally not covered by insurance), the refusal to allow tradesman in to do gas safety checks (which again invalidates insurance), the cost goes far beyond what most small businesses have as an emergency float. And renting out property is a completely different business to anything else. If you went to a supermarket and took things without paying, the police would be called or you would be banned from the store. A builder would be paid in installments, and if you stopped paying the builder would down tools and stop. But a landlord has to let a tenant carry on living there, rent free and possibly damaging the property, until a court directs otherwise.

The rent lost, and the damage caused to my property amounted to the value of about three years rent in total. Not many small businesses could take a loss of revenue amounting to that amount, particularly if it becomes a regular occurrence, which means it simply isn't worth it.

It is rather ludicrous when people like Etoo casually say that landlords have no business to be in that field without financial backup, when she has never been a landlord, she has no idea about being a landlord, and clearly has no idea of what the level of financial back up needs to be. Really, how much level should you have. Do you think three years worth is enough Etoo?

Instead Etoo harps on about the fragile tenant and the responsibility that the landlord has to them. For society to function effectively, everybody has rights but also responsibilities. To Etoo's way of thinking, the only person who has responsibilities in the landlord / tenant scenario is the landlord. The fragile tenant just has the rights.

I expect Etoo would be rather miffed if his/her employer didn't pay him/her because they decided they couldn't afford to. Its still stealing isn't it.

There isn't any other scenario that I can think of where people simply stop deciding to pay in this way. A mortgage company wouldn't be taking the financial hit if someone decided to stop paying. It would be the individual themselves. But in the case of the landlord, some people see them as fair game. And very rarely are they forced to pay that money that they have stolen, back. I find it very sad that a reasonable percentage of people think this is ok, even the ones that don't rent, not caring about the devastation they might cause to the landlord, simply for daring to own another home.

loveisagirlnameddaisy · 26/01/2014 11:49

Fruit salad, I see the point Etoo is making but I think it's naive to believe that can work. Back to my post about people who have no option but to rent out their property because of what life throws at them - are you saying they should just sit on an empty property which will eventually be repossessed if they don't lay the mortgage because they - in Etoo's words - have no business being a LL? I imagine neither of you have been in this predicament.

Misspixietrix · 26/01/2014 11:56

She's given all of the Tenants' baby stuff away?! I hope the Tenants get a brilliant Solicitor and she has a new a arsehole torn in the process. We get some private tenants can be PITAs but there's a reason legal channels should be followed and giving the baby's stuff away is lower than a snakes belly. Not the kids fault is it? Another one who hopes she has the book thrown at her.

Alisvolatpropiis · 26/01/2014 12:10

etoo

Why would someone who requires that money have no business being a landlord?

Some people (tenants) are wildly entitled.

Fortunately I know how to handle non-payment of rent and would have said tenant out legally very promptly indeed.

BrianTheMole · 26/01/2014 12:12

I imagine neither of you have been in this predicament

It would seem unlikely. I doubt they would walk away from something that they had ploughed all their savings into, if there was a chance of hanging on to it. Utterly ridiculous and naive.