To say that if I hear the Tory cliche "hard working families" once more

[DreamingofSummer]

I'll personally nail Osborne's scrotum to the floor

totall tosh woo woo

bringing up a child to be a contributory part of society is a massive thing.

where are the jobs

whwere is the investment

we cannot talk about this in isolation

what funds jobs

what funds investment

Dawn, society should absolutely enable people with disabilities to live as fulfilling lives as possible, including paying for them to have children and supporting them in that.

I don't think it's right to confuse disability benefits with benefits that are paid to people who want to SAH when they could worth though, there is a massive difference between the two things.

Custardo, there is a massive contradiction in what you have just said.

Future generations are of course needed for future society, but human nature dictates that people with have children whether they are paid by the state for it or not.

We don't actually need people to have children they can't afford, because there are enough people who can afford it doing so.

Society should not need to even think about actively encouraging people to have mor children until we have full employment. Until then, an increasing population is part of the problem.

My friend's son has a mild disability, nothing overly serious but it does affect the jobs he can apply for. He was on JSA for nearly 18 months before finding work....he had to apply for a set number of jobs per week. ....up to 10-11 per day and more to show he was fulfilling the criteria for his JSA.

He has no children, lives with my friend and no responsibilities. if it took him 18 months to find his job then how much harder it must be to find a job if you can only work limited hours, have children to think of and childcare to sort out.

i am not talking in terms of population growth - not at all, in fact that did not figure anywhere

...and before anyone says it I am aware that many of you manage ti work fulltime hours as parents. I did the samr for a ling time. Just pointing out that it isnt the same for everyone,

how does one control population

a one child solution>?

you can only have children if you are full time employed

your children will be shot if you are made redundant? or downsized, or the company is bankrupted

you must earn 30k a year before getting permission

anti procreation drugs in the water?

No, YANBU. I'll hold him down for you.

here are the jobs

whwere is the investment

we cannot talk about this in isolation

what funds jobs

what funds investment

Stopping all child related benefits would control population. People would have to consider the financial impact both with their current circumstances and if something goes wrong in the future. No government intervention needed, down to the adult themselves.

I suspect if money/houses were not thrown at people simply for getting pregnant our teen pregnancy rate would dramatically drop, "accidental" pregnancies would be rare and the work shy would have to find another means not to work.

Parents not the state should be responsible for providing for their childs every need, if they cant then SS should step in. Throwing money at people solves nothing and simply creates more problems.

Yanbu.

Since when did the kids go out and earn the money and pay the tax? DH and I have no children and feel dismissed by the Tories because we're not a hardworkingfamlee. However I guess the phrase "hardworking adults" doesn't have the same ring. i may have written to Cameron about this very issue the last time he sent round one of his tedious "questionnaires"

Nobs.

if it took him 18 months to find his job then how much harder it must be to find a job if you can only work limited hours, have children to think of and childcare to sort out.

And that's why people shouldn't conceive unless they are in employment and we have laws to allow for maternity leave.

Apart from where children are born with needs that cannot be catered for in mainstream childcare, we shouldn't have people looking for their first job in years with childcare to consider. People should be in jobs when they choose to have children, and if their partner cannot fully support them financially, they should return to work when maternity leave is up.

Stopping all child related benefits would control population.
China?

As for teen pregnancy rate, that is purely and simply down to education, or lack of it. We have one of the highest teen pregnancy rates in europe, but not one of the highest child related benefits, again, your argument holds no water.

The idea that to benefit society you must be paying tax and/or producing goods is an overly simplistic one. We could all plough our own little field and starve if the crop failed, but somewhere along the line we decided there was more to life than that.

In some cases society gains an actual long term benefit from supporting all citizens and sometimes the benefit is that we don't want to live in a world where people die because it rained on the crops.

If as a society we don't want toddlers wandering the streets and learning to steal then we have to ensure there is child-care or a SAHP. If we want employees that can count we must pay for education and so on.

If you think of society as like a machine, a car perhaps? then you could say "well the steering wheel and engine makes it go, who cares about the rest" but you need all the parts.

Politicians in all parties forget this or choose to ignore it.

HappyMummyOfOne Sat 18-Jan-14 13:22:44

Stopping all child related benefits would control population

so only rich people can have children

I suspect if money/houses were not thrown at people simply for getting pregnant

i work in housing, this is simply bullshit

HappyMummy, that will be why you don't see children/adults starving on the streets around the world then. Because they wisely chose not to provide child benefit and the population stabilizes.

Let's see population growth by country then. Descending:

Liberia
Burundi
Afghanistan (well known for being left wing benefit culture freaks)
...
..
Uganda! I bet they have a whole lot of council houses then for people who get pregnant.
....
...
Still looking for the UK - it must be on here somewhere. I don't get why it's not at the top.
...
...
Oh here it is. You have to keep scrolling past way past Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan

on the up side,

lets do it

lets put something in the water to stop us plebs from having children

becuase WE are the bottom of the pyramid, WE do the manual and shit labour that make rich people rich.

The unemployed - large swaythes of them enable companies to pay shit wages zero hour contacts and shit working conditions with no security - becuase FUCK YOU - if you dont like it, fuck off then, there are so many of you unemployed people, an employer can just get another one

so do it.

cut unemployemnt to fuck all, lets have no more children

the pyramid would fall. there would not be a WE

They would have to import more 'WEs' from another country who doesn't hold this view point

In some cases society gains an actual long term benefit from supporting all citizens and sometimes the benefit is that we don't want to live in a world where people die because it rained on the crops.

Absolutely!

But supporting citizens in my mind means providing high quality education and healthcare to all regardless of the tax they pay. It means providing a safely net for those who cannot work due to disability or illness, and providing short term help for those that find themselves out of work because of redundancy. It means providing services like refuse collection, a police force, a fire brigade, social care.

It does not mean paying for fit and healthy people to stay at home playing with their children and cooking nice dinners when they could be paying their own way in life.

paying their own way how?

where are the jobs

where is the investment

we cannot talk about this in isolation

what funds jobs

what funds investment

Plenty of working people aren't paying their own way in life.

As a sahp I cut the stress so dp can do his job(not all people are the same re stress thresholds and jobs differ),I am a tutor to my kids who attend a not great school,I am a childminder,I am a therapist, I am a volunteer.......I give a better quality of life to my kids and family too so they all achieve more.

I also cook and clean.

When I return to work,it is important to us that I find work which enables me to continue my important role in our family.We could easily reverse roles however dp and I are better suited career wise and personality wise to this set up.We also pay more tax this way.

When I return to work if you're referring to paying your way in pounds I won't be paying anymore and will actually cost the state.

One size does not fit all.Families,people,kids and jobs differ.The arrogance of the Tories who think they can tell us all how to lead our lives astounds me and to be frank makes dp and I dig our heels in more re life choices.It has also made us look at others who have grievances with this gov in a whole new light.

I'll be in line behind you...

Yeah, the highly paid work far harder than a shelf stacker on NMW working 60hr-a-week night shift and looking after their DC's during the day whilst their partner works a day shift , don't they.

(And if you can't see the sarcasm dripping off that sentence then you're blind...)

I should know, as a few years ago, before my disabilities worsened, that WAS my life. I got in at 7.30, Ex-P left for work, then I did the school run and came home to look after a pre-schooler and a toddler. Then did the preschool run, popped home and got an hour's sleep whilst DS2 napped. Then did the school run and cooked their dinner. Then when Ex-P got in, I went to bed for 3 hours. Rinse and repeat, 6 days a week...

(Well, I got less sleep on a Sunday, as Ex-P worked and there was no school / preschool.)

HappyMummy yes, let's stop poor people having children. Only the smug and reasonably well off deserve to procreate! After all, their little darlings will actually contribute to the economy, yes?

Oh, wait. Then who is going to be left to clean your streets, clean your house, dispose of your waste, put the food you buy on the shelves you take it off, and wipe your backside when you are old and ill?

I presume you are raising your own precious, deserving child to accept jobs like that, if necessary?

Thought not.

Not to mention tradies...policemen, firemen...or maybe you should just chuck them all in the armed forces instead as cannon fodder?

Karma, i'd expect DS to work any job if needed to support himself. Hopefully he will have a job he loves but if its hard to break into the area he wants or he meets redundancy then i'd hope he had a decent work ethic and would take any job to feed and clothe himself. I wouldnt be proud if he turned to benefits if he thought a job was beneath him or he fancied not working.

You dont need to be rich to afford children, just earn enough to provide for them. Anything extra is a luxury. I dont think its "smug" to think you should make lifestyle choices that you can afford and not make them if you cant, its just sensible.

There will always be people willing to do NMW jobs, not everyone needs a high income. Second adults in the household, students, adults who live a home or job share etc. Its not like the world would cease if benefits were greatly cut.