School Abscense Fine - huge amount

[PMDD]

If I am correct, if you take your child/ren out of school without prior agreement, there is an automatic fine of £60/day/child/parent?

So for us, a family with 3 children, a 2 week holiday in (say) June, would cost us £3600 - or double that if we don't pay within a certain amount of time!

Is it me to think that is totally unreasonable?!

That is a huge amount. The people who take their children out normally can't afford the hike in holiday prices, so how on earth would they afford the fine?

TOSN

Its analogous because as H.edders we aren't always educating dd and have far more time not teaching/learning academic subjects than a family taking their dc out of school for a couple of weeks.
I can't see as their education would suffer at all and this argument is flawed.

Just, tbh, I am not defending the system of 'targets'.

The point I am trying to make is that, however well you are doing, it matters if you miss school, and you WILL have to catch up, because in most schools now, huge efforts are made to match what a pupil can alreay do to what they need to learn next in order to progress. I think, as an able child who now has able children, schools (at least primaries, with which i am most familiar) are hugely better at this now. Children who are ahead get given work that matches their ability, and those who need support get differentiated work too. Education in my childhood was much more 'one size fits all'.

Many arguments on this thread are based ion 'if you are ahead, it's OK - you'll just be a little bit less ahead for a bit': schools, rightly, feel that if a opupil is ahead, it is their job to ensure that they make progress from their curent position, not mark time until everyone else catches up.

Before I get flamed, yes, i know some schiools aren't great at this. But that is, and shiould rightly be, the ethos - not an'Oh,. you're able, you can miss schiool, you won't learn anything here for a bit anyway'.

Euhah, I can imagine that repeating the same year twice was excruciating. What I want back is the year I didn't have, with all its social bonding and background work for secondary subjects and introduction to homework, not to repeat the first year that I DID have.

Morethan - the thing is that with HE (as an ex HEer myself), you can respond instantly to your child's individual needs. It is unlike school learning in so many ways that it is not analogous to being out of school for a holiday and then returning to a class that has moved on in the meantime. In HE, you can take your own route to the end. In a school, the class moves on while you are not there, and there is not always the individual attention that can get a child back to where they would have been had they not been absent - a thing which is as easy as pie in HE.

Previously I had confidence in the head. I felt it was a partnership. we wanted to go away both parents with the kids. she and he worked with us to find the least disruptive time. sometimes it was July when hols are expensive sometimes December when it was the wet week in Wales. that discretion has been taken away by this law and that is Goves doing but it is the H/T's who have decided not to use their discretion and not to see the fact that the two of us cant be off at the same time in school hols so we have to go in term time. we cant have any discussion about it any more. we cant agree the best time. its an outright no and you will be criminalised. this is not just about cheap holidays. and it isn't politics. the relationships between me and my DC's schools have been eroded and possibly destroyed. my kids understand a term time holiday is a complete exception and a priviledge not a right. they treat it as such with work scanned and sent to us whilst we are away for them to read every night. this legislation was meant to stop long term leave. it hasn't. the religious exemption is there. if its wrong for me to go away for 2 weeks because it damages my childs education why would it be Ok to do this if I cited religious reasons. same kids missing the same lessons. I am going to become a Jedi. we have to have 2 weeks off before Christmas and a week off in July to practice our religion.

Mummy, I can absolutely see that. I have also had to back up a head who was being physically threatened by a parent due to an unauthorised holiday form because 'it's my * right to take my children on holiday and you MUST sign the * form'. Perhaps not on MN, but in RL 'head teacher's discretion' could mean 'parents threatening the head if holiday is not allowed'....

Witht the law becoming clearer, that particularly 'interesting' conversation mignt not have happened...

In some ways, given that the change of wording of the law comes centrally, it would be easier - and fairer - if all holiday decisions came centrally as well, so that there was a uuniform understanding of 'exceptional circumstances'. Tough for heads being srtuck in the middle.

can anyone think of a law where one person alone makes the decision that ultimately could lead to that person being accused of breaking the law where there is no right of appeal? because that is what this law does. H/T decision. they say no that's it. no appeal, no review no nothing. I would never threaten anyone ever teacherwith. I have instilled respect into my children. parents who behave like that should quite rightly be prosecuted for threatening behaviour/assault whatever. I would stand behind you on this. but if they were they would have a right to an appeal and a review. this law does not give this. cant anyone see this as a slippery slope or am I just being paranoid. what next. your kids will have to sit these 6 subjects or else.

Teacher

I do appreciate this, honestly I do and can remember our older dc who were schooled and absence for illness and having to catch up.
However, for Gove to state as he did on the white paper, I only read it last night, that dc would fail is ridiculous.
I think the policy could be made fairer either by giving precise criteria for extenuating circumstances, a blanket refusal for everyone who hasn't extenuating circumstances or allowing a free for all.
The present policy just seems too vague and for many difficult to understand.
Just reading the threads on here about the subject you can see how many parents aren't aware of the full facts of the policy or the fine.

teacher

I missed your post before I added mine.

A kid in ds1 class has just been away after Christmas. Mum told school he had chicken pox. He's returned today with a very dark tan

mummy while it won't directly affect my family imo you aren't being paranoid. Currently the law places the responsibility on a parent to ensure their child receives an education whether they use a school to do so or not. This is chipping away at that responsibility based on the idea that schools that parents have delegated that responsibility to, and parents, are unable to work in partnership anymore because children's education will suffer if they do.

There's a reason Home ed parents fight off attacks on parental freedom to choose how, what, where, and who is responsible for decision making over our children other than in exceptional circumstances, even if they superficially seem quite reasonable.

Re sit these 6 subjects, you already have a situation where if your children can't pass an exam at a particular level, they aren't allowed to study it further and mature into being able to pass at a higher level, and must study lower level subjects regardless of their interest.

As usual, it's the poor who are most disadvantaged by this. The rich will be able to buy the right to holiday when they want. If missing school is so terrible (even being late by 10 mins, which then counts as half a day unauthorised leave) then maybe the punishment should be community service, so that all suffer alike!

I can assure you teacher, that my family was much happier and more bonded after spending nearly 3 weeks relaxing in the warm and sunny south of France than we were after attempting camping in the UK in the school summer holidays when we came home because I ended up so ill and we had spent half the week shivering and too cold to sleep. The same three weeks that was aroung £500 for the lot at the beginning of May as opposed to £850 plus a week in August. I am sure being their for longer increased their confidence in speaking French to the lovely shop assistants etc.

No we don't NEED lovely holidays in the South of France but we don't need lots of things that are nice.

My children get a lot of educational input from our holidays, but I appreciate that is not the case for everyone.

Also re Hamlet and could your children have done better - that I guess whether you measure their worth and achievements by earning power and academic grades.

If I raise children who think outside the box, who value people for who they are and not what they are, who travel and appreciate all the world has to offer, then I will think they have achieved.

I love the idea that the less well off deserve their children to learn about difference countries, to study airports, migration, ferry ports and travel in school, but should never actually achieve it.

If this is such a big deal for people, maybe each county could have one 2 week period a year (or even 1 week) in which children would be allowed to be taken out of school for a reasonable reason (not just to go shopping), with those staying at school doing projects, local outings, sports etc.

I dont think my relationship would survive another camping trip. Last time we went I wanted to stab DP with a tent peg.

M0naLisa but so what?
The school gets a nice attendance report to show Ofsted and the family get a holiday.

There will still be the same "problem" families who are actually not interested in their child's education. Unfortunately they don't get fined as it is deemed counter productive.

Stopping long holidays in term time is fine but there has to be consistency and a system in place. Not ad hoc decisions and vague rumours round school about what you can get away with.

I think it's getting a bit repetitive tbh.
Each time that someone gives an example as to why one parent might find it hard to find time to be on hols during the school hols, the answer is always 'But there are still this one week during the whatever when they could go away'.
What about believing people when they say they can't go at any other time?

My children's old school had a fantastic idea. They put 3 PD days (You know these days that are SO important for the teachers but SO hard top deal with for any working parent) back to back at the end of the May hols. And then told parents that if they wanted top go away out of the school hols, please do so on that week. About half of the parents did. Classes were empty for 2 days only (could even be one day if monday is a bank hol) and everyone was happy. Parents could afford hols, children were missing little and the school didn't see their attendance diving in. It was in an area that wasn't wealthy and the HT thought it was more beneficial for the children to experience going away on hols.

The reality is, the one thing that school will see is an increase in absences for 'ill children' when parents will need a 'one day' off, whatever the reason.
Then we will see the school asking for tougher rules and starting to ask for 'proof' that the child was ill even though you can't as GPs etc... will not give you a sick note for a child or you might not have taken the child to the GP if they have D&V for example because the GPs are telling you not to do so. (Already happening in some schools btw)
Great!

Schools and HT are NOT there to do some policing and giving fines. They are there to educate children. It's not their role.

And yes as I said before, the system is unfair because it means that each school will have a different idea of what means exceptional circumstances. And parents have no idea what it means because it's never been said.
A 'oh children should never be off school for any other reason that ill health' (even that has been frowned upon now) is just bonkers.

I think it is only a matter of time before the government 'helps working families' by providing clinics where you can take children too ill for school but not ill enough for hospital. Clinics actually provided by mates of the government the private sector for profit, but paid for by us. And after that it will be compulsory to take them there.

Euthah - I had to read this twice. first time I thought Nah surely not. now I think you could be right. there was a thread on here a couple of weeks ago where a woman whose child has chronic health problems was told by the EWO she had to produce a sick cert for her child who had d and v. other MNetters suggested she just give the D and V to the EWO. and still.... the kids who really need the help and support are well known but too difficult to tackle so they pick on an easy target to make the figures on attendance look good.

Tiredemma I'm soooooo with you on that one.

After 10 days in the rain I wanted to set light to the thing.

In France it would considered normal to give a GP certificate for an illness of more than a few days.
And they have the staggered holidays depending on the counties (2 different zones).

But, it is normal there to take a child to see a GP for a cold. It is normal for GP to give certificates of absence all the time.
And it is certainly not seen as normal to take a child out of school for a holiday.

None of it has changed the attendance levels as far as I know.

If missing school is so terrible (even being late by 10 mins, which then counts as half a day unauthorised leave) then maybe the punishment should be community service, so that all suffer alike!

That.

It would also help the parents who are always late and disruptive to the entire classroom....