To feel sorry for these dental students?

[Mrsmorton]

In the UK, once you graduate with a BDS (Bachelor of Dental Surgery, sometimes called BChD), you have to undertake a year of training in a protected training job known as Dental Foundation 1. If you don't do this you are unable to ever become an NHS dentist.

Bearing in mind the number of dental students is set by the DoH and the number of DF1 training jobs is set by the DoH, AIBU to think that the number of DF1 places should be roughly the same as the number of students graduating from UK (i.e. funded by the tax payer) dental schools?

There will be approximately 1240 dental graduates this year (it's rare to fail after five years, usually weaker students are weeded out earlier on) and there are a shocking 970 DF1 training places which can be filled by graduates from anywhere in the EU!! Most EU countries don't require the DF1 year, you can just graduate and set up practice in the NHS without it but if you graduate in the UK, you MUST do it.

I find it amazing that so many people struggle to find an NHS dentist (although there are lots in London) and often we (the greedy dentists) get the blame for not wanting to work on the NHS yet these young and motivated almost dentists are being denied the opportunity to become an NHS dentist (or specialist) and they will be up to their necks in debt.

Is is unreasonable to think our DoH shouldn't waste almost two hundred potential NHS dentists in this way. It makes me so

Can they become private dentists though?

I'm treated by dental students, mine is a sweetie. It would be a shame if nhs patients didn't get to benefit from being his patient, it does seem nuts!

My daughter and son-in-law are both dentists. The year my daughter graduated only 8 out of 80 students wanted to work for the NHS so I wouldn't imagine it is a huge problem.

It is a huge problem. Imagine you're a hairdresser, do you leave hairdressing school and go straight to charging David Cameron £90 for a hair cut? Most dentists in the uk contract part of their time to the NHS. Most dentists in the uk do almost solely NHS work for their first five years after graduating. They are being denied the chance to do even this.

mygrandchildren I don't know where your children qualified but that is definitely absolutely not the case in dental schools in the uk. The expectation is that you will do your df1 and then develop a career either in hospital or within mixed practice.

Very precise number, 8 out of 80. I think that's a huge exaggeration based on my very recent experience of working with final year students. In my year of almost that number, every single one was after a df1 job although things were different then.

It is impossible to walk into a private practice straight after uni unless your family own one. Even then you would be a liability without this training year AND your indemnity would be extortionate.

You're right, it's ridiculous.

A significant number of students will end up working abroad (as in medicine) I'm sure.

In addition people do fail finals, comparatively rare but it happens.

People's circumstances also change: they become pregnant/ill etc.

I'm thinking of the situation with regards to medical graduates and FY1 year, there are many more final year students than FY1 jobs, but in the end everyone ends up with a job (and there are even vacancies).

Sadly not all graduates end up with a df1 job. Some are offered the opportunity to pay £9000 to spen the year as a "house officer" treating patients at the hospital and reapply next year what a demoralising start to your career.

It seems to be a problem with lots of professions now. I believe doctors are struggling to get training posts, we know several law students who cannot get training contracts so are working in admin roles and I have read something recently about pharmacists representatives complaining about the same thing coming up for them.

It is sad when talented young people go to university, graduate with huge debts, then find they cannot do the last step of required training to get a good job

The first comment people come out with when thy can't find a dentist is "they should all be forced to work for the NHS to pay the debt of their training" yet when it is explained to them why this can't happen they just aren't interested. It baffles me to be honest.

Yes piscivorus especially when these jobs are restricted by the state.

Someone tried to set up a private equivalent of df1 but the doh slapped them down and said they couldn't do it. Equivalent training at no cost to the tax payer. How outrageous.

I've never heard anyone say that about not being able to find a dentist tbh. However, the bottleneck of getting into training posts is horrible in all professions.

Can the students work elsewhere in the EU for a year/2 years and then be acceptable to the NHS if they want to move home?

Is DF1 what used to be called VT? I was the last year to qualify where you didn't have to do VT, although I did it. I feel very sorry for these poor graduates. As I've been saying for years, the government are trying to do away with NHS dentistry.

It's a similar situation here with Graduate nursing and teaching programs - not enough places for all the graduating final year students :(

Just to respond to one point above: law students are VERY different to medical/dental/nursing/health professions students. Due to accreditations and the way things are paid for, doctors and dentists student numbers are effectively set by their oversight bodies. Hence the very restricted numbers. Very few people complete dental school and don't become dentists. Law degrees are nothing like that. Since the 1992 universities, the number of law graduates (since all these places now have law departments. None of them have medical or dental programs. Plus even the old universities upped the sizes of their departments 2-10 times the size of what they were) is something insane like 20 times what it was in 1991. But there are less training contracts to become a solicitor, or god forbid pupillages to be a barrister. The for profit post grad training of law or bar school has finally thankfully seen people wise up and stop paying unless they have a training contract. Numbers are down 49% at some schools.

As for the OP, I think you're overlooking the considerable number of foreign students who come to the UK to be dental students (and help fund the tuition fees of the others.). There's a fair amount who train here and never from day one intended to practice here. That includes some UK students too. There are also others who, eg, go to med school to complete training as oral surgeons, etc. It is as someone said above, rather like med schools. At first glance, no one seems to have enough spaces and yet everyone seems to wind up with a job.

When you have horror stories WITH ACTUAL FACTS of dentists not getting jobs in their profession, then maybe we might take your complaint seriously.

As some other posters have mentioned, not all dental students want to go on to be GDPs, some undertake more specialist training & some are overseas students who do not continue on to work in this country. I haven't ever heard about a real travesty of a lack of training places for these students (my OH is in the profession & teaches undergrads & DF1s).

To me, this under catering for DF1 places is a reflection of the government's long term intention to phase out dentistry as a service that is available as a subsidised NHS treatment for all.

Wow. I can't believe how many people don't believe that there is a problem! It was a problem when I was a student and far worse now after the opening of Hull and Pennisula Dental schools.

So what that only 8 out of 80 actually want to work on the NHS? For those 72 who don't, tough, private practices are not going to want to employ someone with so little experience. (Private practices want specialists not people fresh out of dental school).

If you go on some forums there are loads of stressed out students worried as there aren't enough places. Oh and Ireland is full of freshly qualified unemployed dentists.

teethgeek.com/no-df1-you-are-not-alone/

Yep - they need to either increase the number of DF1 places (in places where there is a shortage of NHS dntists) or decrease the university places.

It's hardly rocket science!

Students worried there won't be enough spaces is not the same thing as 300 people a year being unable to find the slots. As I said, come back when you've got evidence that there's 300 dental graduates a year out of work. If this was every year, you'd rapidly have thousands of dental graduates unemployed and kicking up a fuss. As you don't, yeah, I don't think there's a problem.

Hello?! I am not the OP and did you not read my link? It is by a student in that exact position and they say there are 200 of them like it out there. Stick your head in the sand by all means but there IS a problem.

There is a huge problem, just because it's not in the news doesn't mean it doesn't exist but clearly everyone one here has managed to find an NHS dentist with no problem at all whatsoever. Which is great news.

aberchips as your dh will know, unless you go straight to med school (quite rare) you can't be a specialist unless you've done df1 so I'm not sure that has much of an impact on numbers.

private practices rarely if ever take new graduates a few foreign students may return without doing DF1 but there is a problem, they are trying to recruit more trainers but it is difficult to get new trainers as if you have a trainee DF1 and they are good you want them to stay on so then you do not have a spare surgery for a new DF1, some practices do not want a new DF1 each year as many patients do not like seeing someone new every time

Wabbity, did you not read your own link???(which doesn't work, by the way)

It is a post about students who didn't get a job ON THE FIRST ALLOCATION. And of course there's more than one allocation.

Even your post which you claim has all this awful news says (and I will quote since you obviously haven't read it):

1. Last years statistics are in our favour. 35 graduates ended up unemployed with roughly the same amount of unallocated candidates at this stage. As long as we keep our heads down and get the degree, we are still realistically in contention for a job. People reject their placements, unfortunately some fail finals, some move abroad. There will be spaces freed up come June. Indeed, moving abroad may be an option for us too, and some may already have put in applications for Scotland DVT.

2. If history doesn’t repeat itself however, then there are potential House Officer jobs intended as a stop gap, and reapplication next year only means we are 6-12 months behind the rest of the year. Who knows, with the spectrum of work and experience you can gain from a year as a House Officer, it might spur us on to specialise. Or, at the very least, make us more rounded clinicians and better prepared for next years round of applications.

3. 1)Revise. Get the degree, I can’t see there being 200 unemployed graduate dentists out there next year.

WHAT DOES THAT LAST SENTENCE OF YOUR ONLY "EVIDENCE" SAY? Speak up, we can't hear you. It says, "...I can't see there being 200 unemployed graduate dentists out there next year."

If you're in this bind, I suggest you learn to read. Will help in your studies and interviews no end.

And in places where there are low numbers of NHS dentists just how do you propose that there are more DF1 places created? Exactly who is going to be supervising their training?

And MrsMorton - it's a foundation training year. How many dentists go or stay working for the NHS after five years has no impact on these numbers. So number of DF1 places has no correlation on finding an NHS dentist.