Tell me if IABU? Puppy v Baby

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I genuinely don't know if IABU. I have a 13 week old Labrador puppy. My db has a 5 week old son, my nephew. I totally believe my new dn is far more important than my puppy. A dog is a dog, a human is a human. However, a dog is still a living creature and I wouldn't want to hurt or damage a dog.

Yesterday (Christmas Day), db came round at 4. As I answered the door he instantly said you need to lock the dog and cats away as dn is here. Dn has never been round my house before so I have never faced this.

I have always locked the cats out for my db as my dsil is very anti cats. She sees them as vermin. They can stay outside as I lock the cat flap.

I locked the puppy in her cage. They only stayed an hour and a half so that was no problem.

Today (Boxing Day), the whole family are coming round for the day. Father, Mother, brother, sister, lots of nieces and nephews and my 3 children are here - there will be 15 of us.

I can't lock my puppy in her cage all day, I don't think it is fair. However, with so many people the doors will be opening and closing constantly so it will be impractical to lock the puppy in 1 room. Also, my house is quite open plan so there isn't an obvious room to lock her in.

I know my db expects my puppy to be locked in her cage. I don't know what to do.

A puppy being introduced to a young baby is not going to mouth immediately. Mouthing is done from either pain (due to teething) or boredom, or because they want to play. They don't randomly walk up to a small child and start chomping. Pup will come up and sniff and if the puppy is being well socialised and trained (as it sounds like the OP is doing) then we can presume is being well supervised, should be allowed to have a sniff, then can be distracted with an appropriate chew toy or treat. It's exactly what should be done to ensure that the baby is seen as just another person in the house. Dogs are social pack animals and will want to greet newcomers, and ensuring that they are well socialised with people of all ages is vitally important. A brief, supervised introduction now will ensure that moving forward the baby is seen as a normal and everyday part of the dogs life.

A dog's crate is also not cruel. It's a dogs own personal den, so use the busy christmas day to teach the dog that it is their safe place. A suitable treat or chew toy (Kong's filled with peanut butter are the preferred choice among my gang as it takes them ages to lick it all out) will keep puppy happy while everything else is happening. I wouldn't trust visitors not to keep doors shut and it's too easy for a small pup to disappear from notice while things are busy and they can get up to mischief and undo all your good training. Put the crate in the corner of the room you're all going to be in, put his bed in, and take him out for frequent pee/socialisation breaks.

The puppy doesn't even have it's adult teeth yet, It's 13 weeks old. Even with the highly skilled googlers of mn, I defy you to find any example if a 13 week old puppy killing anyone. Just another excuse to post daily mail links and make ridiculous declarations. In a minute the poster who recently said cats are dangerous because they smother babies will be along.

A dog's crate is also not cruel. It's a dogs own personal den
Respectfully, I don't think it is like a personal den, unless they can leave when they want and don't have to shit in it.

Well as mine are all now adults, yes they can come and go when they want. I have them all around the house, and they often take themselves in for a nap. It is their personal den, a safe place that they know they can go. It's also a great option for when we go to competitions, or go stay somewhere, or if I'm feeding bones as it stops them playing swapsies.

And none of mine have every 'shit' in their crate. That's exactly what the whole purpose of crate training is. It is never used as punishment, it is seen as a good, safe place, and a dog is unlikely to soil their den. It's a very simple method of house training and teaching elimination control.

We still the use the crate for our 2 yr old dog simply because she loves it so much! She has gone in to it lots over the last three days when it's all got too much for her.
As a pup we never had any chewed skirting boards / wires etc as she was in crate if we were out. It was also not used as a toilet after the first couple if weeks.

OP I hope it went well. Fwiw I have always put our dog in her crate for first half hour or less when young children / babies arrive as she got so excited. She then comes out & shows so little interest as there is usually an adult or older child ready to give her a big fuss. I wouldn't shut her away for long, just long enough for everyone to settle.

Do you have a room you could put the puppy in and put up a baby gate (rather than shutting the door) so the dog is able to roam the room with it's toys and not feel excluded, while at the same time being somewhere safe?

We have a baby gate that traps the dogs in the kitchen. They're free to roam and play on that side of the house but they're out of people's way.

We do NOT cage our dogs because they are rescues and do not like being "trapped" like that (our oldest had some serious separation anxiety issues and when we tried caging I'd have to give her baths and wash her toys daily because she would urinate and defecate in her cage. If I left her to roam a room she was perfectly able to "hold it in" and didn't whine/destroy).

I also agree with the leash idea. I know some people who do the training where they wear a belt (not through loops of pants) and put the handle of the leash through it. It keep their hands free and allows the dog some range of movement while learning to step around you.

I'm not personally of the belief that people are better than dogs. To me they're all sentient but the dogs rely on us to take care of them. There was a science article recently that likened dogs to human children in terms of sentience. www.nytimes.com/2013/10/06/opinion/sunday/dogs-are-people-too.html?_r=0 That's not saying that dogs are the SAME as children (in regards to the whole "I have a dog so it's like having a baby" debate). Just emotionally speaking.

As Rhubarbgarden says your SiL is overplaying the Spanish card. I refuse to believe that there are no pet cats in Madrid.

Theodorous, it's not about killing, but injuring. I wouldn't want my baby scarred. A 5 week baby is still too small even for milk teeth. I certainly wouldn't be exposing him to the possibility of a dog bite, even if by a puppy.
There would be plenty of time for the dog to get used to the child and vice versa.

Also not highly skilled googled. Just baby, killed and labrador.

Yes, the Daily Mail is such as great resource. There is a huge difference between googling Labrador and 13 week old puppy. Anyway, pointless discussion, I like animals and some people don't.

It's not about liking animals. I quite like animals. You don't have to go around accusing people of not liking animals (not that it is a crime) just because people want to be careful about possible injuries to babies.

theparentingpassageway.com/2009/08/26/help-my-puppy-is-biting-my-toddler/

www.ehow.com/how_8700025_prevent-puppies-biting-babies.html - nothing about taking the dog to sniff the baby right away...

I'm just taking the first page of Google results.

There's a big difference between being careful and being hysterical.

That daily mail link is pretty irrelevant - the father was home alone with his baby and a dog (not a puppy) and fast asleep.

The puppy doesn't have to be allowed within mouthing or sniffing distance to the sleeping baby.

Refusing to allow a puppy and baby anywhere near each other is BU - how are they ever going to learn how to interact with each other appropriately?

Puppies and babies can get along: instagram.com/mommasgonecity

And from two initial links, only one was DM.

There's a big difference between being careful and being hysterical.

Yes, hysterical is locking the puppy all the time in a cage.
Careful is managing the dog while the baby is at home, with a combination of walks, leash, cage, and putting the baby out of reach.
Nuts is to allow a mouthy puppy to sniff a baby it has never been in contact with without previous preparation and enough care.

NaturalBaby, the sniffing debate was sparked by an early pp telling the OP to let the puppy sniff the baby. The OP herself has told us the puppy is at a biting stage and it was apparent that she wouldn't do it.

Sniffing and biting are two completely different things.

Introduce puppy and baby in a controlled situation. Pop puppy in crate with nice treat while he is unsupervised. Of course, I'm presuming here that the OP and her family are smart enough not to put the baby in the middle of the floor and walk out of the room. Generally, sensible adults should be able to manage the situation.

Sounds to me as if your brother and SIL are being typically PFB, OP. They are presumably first-time parents of a pretty brand-new baby. They've been rude in the way they've gone about things, and I think they're being terribly precious and over bearing-but-they are first time parents. Let's face it - many many people are fairly over protective and over anxious about a new baby when it's their first. Weren't you? I certainly was. As hard as it is, I'd try to cut them a bit of slack.

That's not to say you should pander to every demand of course-totally unfair to your poor puppy, and locking her away all day would be completely counter productive. But I can, having had Labs during childhood-and having had tiny babies of my own since-understand their nervousness. Absolutely no way would my childhood labs have been safe around tiny babies when they were puppies. No malice intended of course, just boisterousness - but a boisterous puppy could still injure and cause harm.

I would try to break up the day for your pup as best you can. Short walk before guests arrive, some rest/sleep time in her crate, short period of time to say hello, then another walk, then another sleep etc etc.

It's not about liking animals, or dogs killing children.
It's about taking sensible precautions with a puppy and a 5 week old baby.

It's also about respecting your guests wishes, and coming to a compromise. It's all very well saying 'my house, my rules', but they are your guests, and , whether you agree or not, they have concerns about bringing a baby into a house with animals.

Yes, Midnight, but one can follow the other.

There is no reason to allow the puppy anywhere near the baby at this stage. The baby is too young to get used to a dog. And the dog shouldn't certainly be encouraged to play with it.
So, I'd happily keep them in the same house with some care and leave the sniffing to when the baby becomes a toddler or a bigger baby.

I will post on a new thread sometime so as not to let my 8yo hijack this one. I am interested in how to take action on my child's fears (& mine), when confronted by a dog who's owners are known to have no control over it and minimise any bad behaviour it may have. Wonder how the OP got on (sounds like a good owner who has her puppy/the situation under control)

I have a dn who's scared of dogs and a rather exciteable young dog.

When dn comes round I have him on the lead initially. As dog calms down he's allowed off. I have also muzzle trained him so he can be muzzled if needed with a basket muzzle.

I'm Portuguese and at least half the people I know have pets, usually dogs but also cats. In my block of flats there are 10 flats, with four dogs and two cats, including mine.
Unless the Spanish are different.

But there can be a slightly different culture between city and country folk.

Ever told a child not to touch something? Bet you that the minute your back was turned they touched it.

Making the baby an object of fascination by not allowing the dog to see what it is all about is doing exactly the same thing. That's exactly when you're going to cause problems, because the dog is going to want to see what this strange smelling, noisy new thing is that everyone else is fascinated by. You're creating a problem by not making the baby just another part of the family structure.

No one is suggesting allowing the dog to play with the puppy. I had six dogs (two were only puppies) when DS came home. I walked in and let them get the "mum's home!" excitement out of the way, then got DS and sat on the floor with him and let them come up and have a quick sniff. Told them to go lie down in their beds. End of subject. Dogs got to greet this interesting little addition to the household, but also learnt that mum is still in charge and not to play with him. Now they will play for hours together, DS charges around the yard like the pied piper of retrievers with them all trotting along behind him. By not making his arrival a "big deal", they accepted him in to the house and he just became another part of their pack.