...to be unable to choose a school??

[QueenofKelsingra]

Ok, so I'm posting here for traffic. Just after people's gut reactions. Trying to choose between 2 primary schools for DS1 (we also have DTs to follow him in 2 years time). Which would you choose based on the following main points:

School 1

Walking distance
he's at the on site pre-school
separate class for each year group
swimming pool on site
190 pupils in school
27-32 pupils in each class
non-teaching head (who is also away a lot doing Ofsted training)
male/female/young/older teachers
Ofsted Good
more 'common sense' option

School 2

2 miles by car (no pavements so have to drive)
no pre-school
R has own class, then mixed yr 1/2, 3/4, 5/6
80 pupils in school
R class has 9 pupils, mixed classes 18-24
teaching head
mostly female teachers and all older.
Ofsted Outstanding
is an academy
curriculum set up and content looked better

gut reactions just based on these facts please!

ds8 yr4 has done mixed years on alternate years as the school expanded the year after him if that makes sense ...and it is so much better when he's not in a mixed year....and the best year was when in a class of 22
Rest of the time its always about 30- the very worst was yr 3/4 for some reason they abandoned the split by age (eg 1 group 30 youngest, 2nd group 15 oldest and 15 youngest 3rd group oldest 30) and just 'randomly' mixed all 90 even though his teacher was fantastic and had to tow the party line said it was the hardest year she had ever had.
The range of just 8 til nearly 10 socially was hard for the youngest.
We didn't get a choice though and in the main the school is ok

Not a fan of mixed age classes and they struggle with resources compared to the 2 /3 form norm around here- so I would chose 1 but would go and look again and see if you talk to some other parents find out about a deputy head if the current one not around much as that doesn't seem great....

creamy for level 5 school 1: 30%-48% across the disciplines, school 2: 50%-88%. DTs would come under the sibling catchment so should be fine. not sure why it's undersubscribed, it is in a tiny village though and all neighbouring villages have Good primaries.

anadventure no school 3! we're in the middle of the sticks! :)

clay it worries me, but not suprising if one is a teaching head and one is a semi-absent non teaching one?

sidewinder another Hobb fan? useful insider info! will check out the TA thing. the change to secondary does worry me.

catriona that is my thought about the DTs too - but should I choose the 'wrong' school for DS because of the DTs?

have to pop out but will be back later. you are all helping my thought process no end!

Don't underestimate the value of your DC having their school friends living locally as they get more independent and you want to give them some freedom: if their friends are two miles away you will struggle to do that one step at a time.

As for the 100% vs 63% SATs: what is the intake like? How is SN provision at each school, are children with SN being pulled out of school 2 because it isn't supporting them or is school 1 not doing enough? I'd be more suspicious of a school with 100% level 4 as its not likely to have an intake in which no child will really really struggle to get that. So how are they managing it?

Option 1 absolutely - because my DS is stuck in a school that has this
R has own class, then mixed yr 1/2, 3/4, 5/6
and it is a nightmare.

Shared age groups are a pain in the arse because they are always weighted to the youngest/weakest in the class.
And small schools are not all they are cracked up to be - fewer options for making friends.
In my son's year group there are only 5 boys and they all have siblings in school too and play with them.
My son is really very lonely and we are going to move him to a bigger school asap.

And pay little attention to Ofsted ratings.
"Outstanding" schools round here are dropping like flies.

Imo,there is not one school that fits all.
The school my older dc are in is the best in the area for my oldest. My second child (& I) are having a tough time because it's not the best school for him.
I am debating about moving him when the oldest leaves at that point I will have others to move too but not thinking about it yet

That said, i think the nearest school to your house counts for a lot and that would be my first choice.
What was your own gut instinct on visiting both schools?

the 100% vs 63% is the same as the breakdown between my DC's school and the local primary .

The reality is that the children at the 100% primary come predominantly from naice middle class families with very involved parents who are deteremined their children will do well. I read a good analogy on MN that these are the sort of children that will get Level 4 even if all they do at school is play in the mud all day, because parental involvement is so high.

My DC's school is more diverse, high number of children from deprived backgrounds, fair amount of children with SEN, fair bit of migration in and out of school (DD has had 1 children leave and 2 children arrie in her class already this year, DS has had 3 join and 2 leave). However the school has plans in place to allow every child to progress regardless of who they are. High achievers will be getting Level 5 or 6. Some of the children will be getting Level 3 which is a great personal achievement for them.

YOu do have to look beyond the headline results.

What I would say about mixed is see how the schools do the split.

school 1 mixed foundation reception with keystage 1-no other local schools did that.

The 45intake meant always 15on outside with my dd in middle never in mixed class but never considered how she feel losing mates and having diffrent class compisition each year.

The odd 15never did pe or any other subjets with the other 30in their year.

Sool 2 20per year mixed classes so in year 2 she was one of 10 year 2 in year 1 class 20year 1s who had already done year together in reception, the older 10year 2s were with 20years 3s however

they shared same playground
taught pe and science in year groups of 20
had lots extra curricular clubs either ks1 or ks2 so she got to know the other 10in her year.
Letters and sounds phonics unliek old school were not split by class teh groups were who school so as she was quite good phonics he was in group with some year 3s.

This year thankfully her younger freinds who are now year 2 are older so still in her class but separate playground but at breaks shes mingling with all year 3s, 4s and 5,s so even though smaller shes more freinds now than old school which was twice the size,

also new school good at interventions/learing support.

saw a local school dd2 and they had 3classes 25rceptions then mixed was infants only but ead went great lengths to explain how the mixed class has additional support and actually the 30clas are often taught in groups of 15 in the mixed year 1/2class.

I would never choose convieniance over choice think after 1mistake with pfb im now much more cautious and know what I want.

Both heads at both schools rarly taught apart from odd time when teacher was sick as think heads its lot of managing and admin and they dot always get chance to teach.

but what it did mean for school 1 was deputy head who had cass was always covering for head when he was away and her class suffered as result and it was clear deputy head and head dident get on.

School 1 for me because it's walking distance and has a good mix of teachers. It is also quite a small school but I think not mixing the classes is probably better for the children in primary as they learn at such different rates at that age.

Have only read page one, and appear to be going against the grain from that, but I personally would choose school 2.

My children are at a village school, four miles away, even though there is a primary within walking distance. My children have flourished. Dd1 is now in y6. She is one of six y6 pupils, but their class is y4,y5 and y6 and she has friends in the lower aged year groups. It is a church school and has 67 students. All the children know each other and look after each other. This is fostered very early on by partnering older students with younger ones when walking to the church (so y6 partner reception etc).

They have plenty of music, arts, drama, sport etc and have their own outdoor pool. My dd1 is hitting level 6s across the board and has been allowed to flourish in a caring, friendly atmosphere.

She moved to this school halfway through reception after I was far from happy with the more local, bigger school, where she wasnt expected to read to a teacher, ever, and where she wasnt appropriately supervised at play times (hence 2 visits to A&E!). I was also told, when asking about her progress, that she was "jumping off the walls"! Yes, because she was bored!

School 2 has a very small year 6 cohort though and so personally the stats you've quoted wouldn't sway me.

I would have gone for option2 even before you added the extra info, because if one of your DCs has any kind of SEN or is a summer born, I think school2 will be better suited, and getting all kids attaining high grades gives you more options at secondary. I'd go for option1 only if I were very confident indeed that my kids are sociable, chatty, and will have no special needs.

Obv I am biased as both of mine have SN and have benefitted hugely by small class sizes and good pastoral care.

Theoretically any results in yr 6 will equate to about 9-12 kids achieving level 4 at the end of key stage two in school two. In school one, it's between 16 and 22.

Go and visit both again, it may help.

School one, definitely.

Walking distance, single age classes and a (whilst still small) bigger school (which means more opportunities for clubs, interests, different friends, etc as they get old).

Have you looked at the full OFSTED report for school 2? If they don't have an outstanding for teaching then, on their next report, unless that has come up to outstanding they will be downgraded to at least at good. I wouldn't place too much weight on teh difference between a recent good and a 2009 outstanding either. The reports really aren't that easy to cross compare.

The point about friendship groups is important. I spent 4 years working in a school with 90 children and if one child fell out with another they could easily find themselves falling out with their whole year group. We only had 9 kids in Y6 - one girl. She found that hard.

Also, my DC's school has Ofsted Good but should be outstanding and missed out on a technicality.

Look at things like after school clubs, residential trips etc too.

As Harticus said: the composite classes are an absolute nightmare and cause a lot of problems, in my experience.
In fact I sent my 6th child to an independent primary to avoid them.
Small classes can be a disadvantage for all the reasons mentioned above and it is so true about needing to be a certain size to get all the advantages of things like music teachers and gym specialists.

School 2

I had the same issue school 1 being across the road but only "good" school 2 being a 40minute walk but "outstanding". I put school 2 as first and 1 as second my child's education trumps walking distance everytime.

I agree with the majority of others and that's school 1.
Reason being is that i have been in similar circumstances in a sense. My DS 10 was until May this year was at a school that you could class as school 2.

School 2 was about 3 miles away, across the border and my son went to the infant school there and so (big mistake) thought i keep him out of borough and let him go to the junior school as whilst he was at the infants. The juniors school had an amazing headteacher who basically worked miracles with DD14.

Unfortunately things went rapidly down hill after DD14 left for secondary. Basically the deputy head retired and the head couldn't cope. Ofsted came and gave them 4's.

It was a small school, did mix years and 24 children per class and 2 classes a year.
We left as my son had special needs and they couldn't met his needs and he was getting closed to getting permanently excluded.
He was also getting targeted by his school years and even by yr 6's. He was miserable.

So it came down to a meeting with the new head, the inclusion officer, the PRU outreach and the EP, where it was decided that he needed to attend a school closer to home which was in borough.
So i put him on a waiting list and he started at school 1 within a few months.
However the head of school 1 did not want him at all and tried everything apart from applying the thumb screws to stop us.

So he started there, just after last half term, at a school that has good features/outstanding features. Class size of 30, the school is getting expanded from 3 classes per yr to 4 at the moment.

So far, i have only been called in to school once and that was last term. This year they put him in a class with a teacher that has had children like my son before and is really in fact a yr 6 teacher but is teaching yr 5 this year because of my son.

My son (touchwood) is doing very well and his handwriting (which 'was/is' a major trigger) has improved a lot.
As i have mobility issues, i still have to drive part of the way and he walks the rest, but sometimes when his siblings are off school or he's doing an after school club they walk down to get him.

But i am hoping that after christmas, as the school are planning to open a second entrance the other end of the school (closer to home) that my son will be able to walk all the way by himself.

What did send up a few red flags for me in regards to school 2 is the 100% level 4's. How are they achieving that if there's s/n children at the school?
Can't help thinking maybe that's why they are unsubscribed as the s/n children are being 'transferred' out and it's all about the 'sats'.

Also i don't believe in 'outstanding' schools at all as my eldest DD16 has attend 2 of those (special schools) and they have been totally shite towards my daughter. Actually transferred her out of one last year as she was getting bullied and she now goes to one which is under special measures and she LOVES IT!!

Last thing and sorry for the essay is that when DD14 started secondary school she was the only one from her school.

It would take a lot to trump the local school. It's not about the convience of your journey, but the benefits of being at a school that is at the heart of your community, where friends are also local to you.

A school's record is important, but for your child your input and support are more important in helping your DC realise their potential.

A final point is: if school 2 is so under subscribed and not filling up - I'm assuming there isn't a London/SE pressure on places were you are - then school 2 could be in danger of closing.

Do factor in the time spent ferrying children to play dates.

Thank you everyone for your thoughts, especially those who were able to share their experiences of making a similar decision.

DH and I are still discussing - we have narrowed it down to the fact that we worry about DS1 being in a class of 32 but equally we worry for our DTs in a few years if they are in a class of 9! on this basis we think it sensible to send him to school 1 as it is our catchment school and it will be full which will give us the opportunity to move him to school 2 if we feel school 1 isn't right for him. he is already settled at the pre-school and the proximity of the school is a big pull.

we think it is probably sensible to give the 'common sense' choice the chance to be right before making our lives more complicated by going for school 2.

thanks for all your opinions, it has been really helpful!

Bear in mind he shouldn't be in a class of 32 at this stage. It must be 30 or under (except some specific situations - e.g. where one of a pair of twins gets place 30, the other can still join the same school. Or where someone wins an appeal). The classes of 32 shouldn't be until year 3.