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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think the baby Jesus wasn't laid in a chuffing 'feeding trough'?

99 replies

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 10/12/2013 22:44

Ok, am atheist and perhaps not entitled to comment. But I support, like and attend my dds' carol service every year, and every year I wonder why in the blazes the church has changed the words to stuff.
Can't people understand 'thine is the kingdom', and 'trespasses' any more?
Why must Mary be 'pregnant' not 'with child'?
Aren't all those Christmas verses and readings and carols sort of losing something through accessible bland language?

This isn't the school: it's the bloody minster! Why have they done this? Why??

OP posts:
Delurkedforthis · 10/12/2013 22:46

Why not?

FrillyMummy · 10/12/2013 22:48

It means the same thing!!

gwenniebee · 10/12/2013 22:49

Oh it's horrendous - and I speak as a regular church goer. No, apparently we are all morons who can't be expected to understand words of more than one syllable. Grrrr.

gwenniebee · 10/12/2013 22:50

And actually - as for "why not?" - because it's nice to have a bit of poetry and gravitas about the whole situation, not just dumb it down.

Mim78 · 10/12/2013 22:51

I have a strong suspicion he wasn't laid in a manger or feeding trough, as surely the animals would have thought anything put in there was dinner?

Asking for trouble if you ask me.

(Unfortunately I said this out loud in front of dd the other day...)

Ullapull · 10/12/2013 22:51

How old are you? Modernised variations of the lord's prayer have been around for yonks, just down to the church or school which one they use. YABu anyway, it's no big deal.

SomethingkindaOod · 10/12/2013 22:52

Well, on the one hand language evolves, but on the other it pisses me off a bit too...
The Lords Prayer is a big case in point, it's a beautiful prayer in it's original form. The newer version just doesn't sound right at all and I don't think it's that popular.
I don't see why teachers/parents/whoever can't just explain the difference in language tbh or let the children try and work it out for themselves!
YANBU

NorthernLebkuchen · 10/12/2013 22:52

People have been at this for years. It's not a new thing. Charles Wesley's well known carol 'Hark the Herald Angels Sing' was orginally called 'Hark how all the welkin rings!'

Hands up if you know what a/the welkin is.........

SomethingkindaOod · 10/12/2013 22:53

Didn't they try and modernise the Nicene Creed at one point or did I imagine that?

MadameDefarge · 10/12/2013 22:53

mims, the animals were all star struck and agog at the babee cheesus so would not have mistaken him for a large mouthful of tasty hay. what with being vegetarians and all that anyway.

I think it was pretty inventive. Though Mary clearly had not heard about attachment parenting.

Original poster
TheOriginalSteamingNit · 10/12/2013 22:53

I'm 35: it was definitely 'thine is the kingsom' etc when I was at school!

And yes, I'm sure he probably wasn't laid in either: but if he was, it wasn't a feeding trough!

Meh... I'm a sentimentalist and hence a traditionalist, I guess!

OP posts:
Original poster
TheOriginalSteamingNit · 10/12/2013 22:53

I know what a welkin is! Shakespeare is full of welkins!

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FrillyMummy · 10/12/2013 22:54

People often moan that the bible and Christianity are old and dusty, what's wrong with modernising it? Yes it's poetic, but what's wrong with modernising it and feeling the nitty gritty of it all?

MadameDefarge · 10/12/2013 22:54

well, a manger IS actually a feeding trough. Its not some random bit of cosy woodwork lined with straw in case pregnant ladies need somewhere to put their newborns down in.

I don't see how you can get round that one.

Binkyridesagain · 10/12/2013 22:55

I'm not a church goer but when I do go it gets on my wick when they change the words. I know the lords prayer off by heart (church school when a LOT younger) the newer versions have different words and bits chopped off. I tend to just mumble now as I'm not sure which version I'm meant to be saying.

And don't get me started on hymns!!

FortyDoorsToNowhere · 10/12/2013 22:55

I think if Mary was alive today Joseph will be damanding a DNA test.

I love the nativity though, the only thing I like about Christmas is my DD play. ( I know I have 2 children but DS don't do plays)

Original poster
TheOriginalSteamingNit · 10/12/2013 22:55

And yeah, I agree, the older versions have a poetry and a gravitas about them that 'the kingdom is yours, today and every day' etc do not.

I guess I find it dispiriting if the reason is because it's considered too hard for anyone to understand any more. Cos it's not!

OP posts:
Original poster
TheOriginalSteamingNit · 10/12/2013 22:57

Away in a feeding trough? It doesn't seem right.

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JollyGolightly · 10/12/2013 22:57

In the church of Scotland it's always been "debts" rather than "trespasses". As in, "forgive us our debts, as we forget our debtors".

SomethingkindaOod · 10/12/2013 22:57

Manger just sounds nicer.
Frilly because sometimes it doesn't work, just like adapting Shakespeare to modern day language usually doesn't work. The best adaptations keep the language whatever the characters are wearing.
The Lords Prayer flows when said in it's traditional form, it's like a song. The modernised version is clunky and feels wrong when you say it.

Weegiemum · 10/12/2013 22:57

If you like the Lords Prayer in its original form ... are you actually praying in Aramaic or Greek? That's the original!

Delurkedforthis · 10/12/2013 22:58

because it's nice to have a bit of poetry and gravitas but there's nothing inherently more poetic and serious about archaic language...it's just older!

Nothing wrong with having a preference for the old way...but nothing wrong with using contemporary language either...what's 'dumb' about that?

But in fact I couldn't give a rat's arse either way.

headinhands · 10/12/2013 22:59

Oh come on! We all know god was born in the 18th century. Every time someone says 'feeding trough' an angel loses a feather. :(

SomethingkindaOod · 10/12/2013 22:59

We really need a sticking out tongue emoticon so I can point it at weegie.. I meant the traditional 'for thine is the kingdom' form Grin
My Greek is very rusty and wouldn't stretch to a full prayer...

Original poster
TheOriginalSteamingNit · 10/12/2013 23:03

I think what I don't like is it being modernizing for modernizing's sake, on the premise that 'kids today' won't understand thine and thy and so on... Which seems a shame, because I can't see why they couldn't.

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