To think the baby Jesus wasn't laid in a chuffing 'feeding trough'?

[TheOriginalSteamingNit]

Ok, am atheist and perhaps not entitled to comment. But I support, like and attend my dds' carol service every year, and every year I wonder why in the blazes the church has changed the words to stuff.
Can't people understand 'thine is the kingdom', and 'trespasses' any more?
Why must Mary be 'pregnant' not 'with child'?
Aren't all those Christmas verses and readings and carols sort of losing something through accessible bland language?

This isn't the school: it's the bloody minster! Why have they done this? Why??

without means outside of.

ahem.

the original the original words are without meaning outwith

So god doesn't understand 'thee' any more? Or, he does, but he's willing to bend on that in a way he isn't on most other issues?

It just seems a bit like change for its own same rather.

madame yes, it does, that's what we're saying!

so caitlin, the point is, outside a city wall is actually a literal translation to modern terminology.

Yes Caitlin, but I was quite old before I realised "without" meant "outside". And I'm sure a lot of people wouldn't get that now. But I don't think it's particularly necessary to carve up old hymns, it's nicer to have new ones that reflect today's faith.
Cashmiriana, I agree the King James Version is incredibly beautiful. I would be interested to find out more about the authors. I wonder, did they have any poets on board when they produced the modern versions of the Bible? Sadly I suspect not. But it is clearer.

sorry the original, realise we were at cross, er same purposes!

But I think our twinkly references might have fallen, quite reasonably, on deaf ears.

Our congregation isn't mad on the modern wordings. The children in Sunday School prefer the sound of the traditional Lords Prayer. They're no less capable of understabding it than I was 25yrs ago.

Away in a Manger has been known to make me sob. The Christmas I had my very newborn baby boy and was full in the grips of baby blues and hormones. The thought of the little Lord Jesus having no crib for a bed was too much. I don't think my hormones could have taken a feeding trough!

No need for induction in those days. I'm not suprised riding a donkey set Mary off.

Yes, Madame, but given that 'without' does mean the same thing, why change it?

No man, God understands everything! He's god!

But he doesn't need us to poncetastic it up for his benefit. Jesus was poor and uneducated. If he was here today he wouldn't thee and thou and forsaken and trespass. He'd just talk normal.

Well I should imagine that York Minster - like many, many churches, has different services at different times, and if you want one with more traditional wording, you will probably find one if you look / ask.

I love the traditional readings and familiar words to prayers, sometimes but I also think we need to be made to think sometimes. Yes, I grew up with 'manger' in my mind as being some cosy cot for a baby, and it was only as a teen when I saw the story being presented in a more modern way,(I think it was an old crate they used) I started thinking a bit more about the reality of the situation of this poor young girl giving birth, basically in a shed, with nothing to put the baby in. I like traditional poetry and words, but I like to be made to think too. Perhaps that's what the worship Leader was doing at the service you went to ? Difficult to know without being there / talking to him/her.

Madame, we have crossed again, sorry!
Also whenever I try to type yes, iPad tries to make it yea. Which might be a lesson. In some way.

The point is I think that the euphony and poetry in old hymns gives our children access to their heritage and a gorgeous use of language, which, while being a bit incomprehensible sometimes, does inform their deep knowledge of their language and culture.

If I wanted a clear and explicit, modern language version of the bible, great. But to lose all the fabulous poetics and imagery - even if it is only from one particular interpretation and era, or several, as it were, is to deny our kids their cultural heritage.

You need to sing the songs to feel the euphony and poetry...these rhythms become part of us, as a heritage of our culture.

I never felt particularly alienated by singing Hosanna in Excelsis! It was beautiful and uplifting.

even though I am a dyed in the wool atheist, I defy anyone not to be moved by the beauty of sincerity of those phrases.

Disagree that Jesus was uneducated. He was a fantastic scholar of Jewish history and law.

No, back, it was a Reading, with chapter and verse cited... Not a paraphrase or an explanation, in which case yes, I would take your point. But this was a reading, and it said that pregnant Mary gave birth and placed the baby in a feeding trough.

And I would be very very grumpy if anyone tried to reinterprete 'here we go awaiseling..'

Yes, Madame. Dd has been wandering around the house of late singing in excelsis deo... I think she could have got in board with a bit of thee and thou.

Yes moomin. Jesus was actually quite posh. Ahem.

The common prayer has been modernised! I had no idea. I have been to church relatively recently for a christening and they used the form I was taught.

'we are not daily beggars who beg from door to door/ we are your neighbours children whom you have seen before' always sickened me a bit, I must say.

And the imagery Jesus used in his stories is very powerful: the lilies of the field; the man who built his house upon the rock; the virgins trimming their lamps.

Glo or or or or or or ria!

Different churches use different versions of the liturgy. Some use the older, more traditional versions. Others use the more modern versions which may make more sense to some people. Some churches use both.

In fact Jesus would have spoken, oh blimey, Aramaic?

I have no idea how you would render poetry and euphony into songs within an Aramaic tradition.

Madamdefarge I am well aware without meant outside. I didn't think it meant there wasn't a wall. I don't see the point of changing it to outside.