To think that a pupil premium should be paid for children who live in home where none of the parents have qualifications

[ReallyTired]

I think that the education of the parents has a more significant outcome on a child's attainment than income. (Especially as many working poor don't have much more money than those on benefits.)

I feel that children who live in households where no adult has five GCSEs or equivalent should get extra support at school. Often these families aren't entitled to benefits because the parents do work so currently don't get the pupil premium.

It is harder for uneducated parents to support their children with homework than someone with a degree. Better eduated mothers are better at getting their children's needs met as they are often more articulate. For example making sure that statemented child gets what they are legally entitled to. (Getting a child assesed by an ed pych so that the child's dyslexia is spotted.)

Unskilled people often do physically hard work for very long hours for very little money. I believe that a child with unskilled working parents is at a major disadvantage as their parents are time poor as well as cash poor.

No Purdey would have lasted the distance...wife material was something quite different
lol a Purdey is a type of gun....

A primary school child is not going to learn maths through vocational experience. Certainly vocational learning is good for older children.

My point concerned more making sure maths is seen as relevant. Also not leaving the teaching of it up to parents. The ability is obviously there, if it has come out in later life.

IMO schools where parents do support homework can get terribly complacent, judging from some of the threads on here. It is probably these schools who would want extra funding if parent's qualifications were not up to the job.

capsium and you still seem to feel that the working classes should know what's good for them and keep quiet, too!

Incidentally, without identifying that person too much, in case the employers are on MN, someone in my family is one of those agricultural labourers. The lord and lady of the manor oversee, and complain about untidiness. Like leaves on the ground.

Nigella well I'm not sorry for that lack of knowledge. Farming was not for me!

TheBigJessie You have got me wrong. I was brought up working class. I appreciate the struggles only too well.

However I find pity very patronizing. I would hate any to be aimed at myself during those times or now.

I want people to have hope and be excited at the potential for success rather than pity. This does not involve somebody handing my teachers a handout, almost as compensation for having me....it involves my teachers actually wanting to teach me.

"I want people to have hope and be excited at the potential for success rather than pity. This does not involve somebody handing my teachers a handout, almost as compensation for having me....it involves my teachers actually wanting to teach me."

The system of giving schools nothing extra has not worked for MOST children. In lala land schools in challenging areas can attract the best staff without extra pay. In reality you have to offer an attractive package to get the best teachers.

Teaching at an OFSTED inadequate school with lots of low achieving children is potential career suicide. Even the best teachers have a mortgage to pay. It is easier to get progress out of a middle class kids where the parents do a lot of the work for the teacher.

School have the freedom to use the pp to attract the best teachers in the area if they choose.

Really Ironically the best teachers, sold by an 'attractive package' are not really the best IMO.

They are the most personally ambitious, which is different....

It is easier to get progress out of a middle class kids where the parents do a lot of the work for the teacher.

Evidently. Herein lies the problem.

However the answer is not to make more of parents do more work. The answer is for the teachers teach effectively enough in order to enable their pupils to do the work independently of parental help.

'Support' in schools often seems to be concerned with getting the parents to do the extra work at home.

Such as maths, reading and writing workshops for the parents...

Extra extension work, done at home, to 'support' a child's learning.

My (working class, left school at fourteen and fifteen respectively) parents correctly regarded homework as something for me to do, myself. I don't really understand this question. As far as I can tell, people are talking about doing their children's homework for them. I am fairly sure I wouldn't have gotten as far as finishing my PhD without developing the ability to work independently at an early age.

Lengthy Home School Agreements...

DingDong Not doing homework for a child but actually teaching them at home is what I am talking about.

Agricultural workers are unlikely to have access to Purdeys either......

Agricultural workers are unlikely to have access to Purdeys either......

So....?

It's not compensation. It's acknowledgement of need. If you want kids inspired, who aren't being inspired at home, then you, as a school, need work differently from a school im a naice area where the kids are being bribed to pass their spelling test.

Some of those things cost money. I went to a lovely PRU. It was very peaceful. The staff were wonderful. They were probably also reasonably expensive, and although some of them, as nurturing, principled teachers would have worked there anyway, I don't approve of underpaying trachers and nurses because you can get away with it...

Anyway, although peaceful, I think that the costs for it would have been rather more than the price of chalk. Making 15/16 year olds, who can play truant, want to come in each day, because they feel safe and it's like a home, even though it means you have to learn about passive tenses, takes resources. Supporting individual students, liasing, amd generally responding to individual pupils costs money. Worthwhile things always do.

People in the thread have already explained about using their school's PP for an increased level of pastoral care across the school which sounds like a reliable way to spend money and achieve the desired outcome. That's one of the major things my PRU did. That's why some of their alumni were inspired by learning again and some even did go to RG group universities!

capsium where are you going to get all these top teachers to work in low achieving schools? Even programmes like Teach First cannot be rolled out nationally as there is a finite supply of truely gifted people.

There is nothing you can do to stop middle class parents from helping their children with learning.

"However the answer is not to make more of parents do more work. The answer is for the teachers teach effectively enough in order to enable their pupils to do the work independently of parental help."

How would you achieve this without extra resources. Superman has not yet applied to do teacher training. We have human beings in the teaching profession who do not have super powers.

It's not compensation. It's acknowledgement of need.

Thankfully Jessie you have seen the good side of it. The bad side of it is worse than nothing. It is people not money that make it good IMO. However I am not advocating paying awful salaries either.

How would you achieve this without extra resources. Superman has not yet applied to do teacher training. We have human beings in the teaching profession who do not have super powers.

I would make it easier to remove those responsible for poor practice from teaching.

Also, have you ever tried to teach someone who did not want to learn or who had already decided they were incapable? What about more than one? There's only so much an "effective teacher" can do (although my husband is presently experimenting with using Cadburys chocolate as a method to coax some of year 11 into getting that life-changing C ). At some point, you need to tackle the underlying issues, not just blame teaching methods.

although my husband is presently experimenting with using Cadburys chocolate as a method to coax some of year 11 into getting that life-changing C
haha my dd's gcse maths teacher does that but with sherbert dib dabs

Also, have you ever tried to teach someone who did not want to learn or who had already decided they were incapable?

Yes. My ds. Thankfully managed to turn it round.

.....more than one? Of sorts but not formal teaching. I used to work for a charity that provided play opportunities in some fairly deprived areas.

"
I would make it easier to remove those responsible for poor practice from teaching."

There are already pretty strong powers for heads to sack incompetant teachers. Schools do have to adhere to employment laws and can't sack an established teacher on a whim. There has to be competancy proceedings and "support".

If you set the bar too high for qualtiy teachers then we will have no teachers. In the past when salaries for teachers and nurses have been too low we have had terrible shortages.

capsium do you have any practical suggestions of how to address low achievement? Have you ever worked in a school?

It's not just people that cost money, either. Sorting out the toilets, putting sanitary towels in there, so no girl has to go through the unnecessary humiliation of admitting her parents don't buy them, (the staff already know the family has social services involvement- no need to make the girl talk about it when she doesn't want to), involving students in interior decoration, and making sure every child, every year gets to do a bit. Doing Wildlife-y Stuff in the grounds. Access to a toaster and bread, because some people don't arrive fed, never mind with lunch.

Making somewhere feel nice costs money, whether it's a house you arendoimg up or a school.