To think that a pupil premium should be paid for children who live in home where none of the parents have qualifications

[ReallyTired]

I think that the education of the parents has a more significant outcome on a child's attainment than income. (Especially as many working poor don't have much more money than those on benefits.)

I feel that children who live in households where no adult has five GCSEs or equivalent should get extra support at school. Often these families aren't entitled to benefits because the parents do work so currently don't get the pupil premium.

It is harder for uneducated parents to support their children with homework than someone with a degree. Better eduated mothers are better at getting their children's needs met as they are often more articulate. For example making sure that statemented child gets what they are legally entitled to. (Getting a child assesed by an ed pych so that the child's dyslexia is spotted.)

Unskilled people often do physically hard work for very long hours for very little money. I believe that a child with unskilled working parents is at a major disadvantage as their parents are time poor as well as cash poor.

It's almost as if some people think schools are part of a conspiracy to make sure children don't get a decent education............

curlew It is not personal. But yes I do think the state education system has flaws.

part of a conspiracy to make sure children don't get a decent education
well, now you mention curlew, it has crossed my mind, yes.

"curlew It is not personal. But yes I do think the state education system has flaws."

Of course it has. One of them being the underachievement of poor and/or disadvantaged children..........

The reason for the underachievement of these children remains unknown though.

Part of the problem could be low aspirations of the teaching profession caused by overly conservative predictive grades and managed progression which magically covers the requisite amount of sub levels each year... and then the dipping of a sub level over the holidays... so the next teacher can show adequate progression. Especially when many, within the profession, argue that sub levels are meaningless.

Then if a child does not appear to achieve, there is a nice neat excuse lined up which correlates perfectly with our class system.

"I do not like the thought that a whole group of children are targeted for this type of 'support' simply as a result of parental income."

Why? Surely its more optimistic to think that povety can cause underachievement than to believe that children in low income families are fundermentally incapable of achievment. The alternative is the 1950s approach of believing that some children are genetically idiots and there is no point in attempting to educate them.

capsium There is research to support that taking a child out for extra time with the TA is determinmental when they miss an entire lesson. Certainly the goverment is using that as an argument for cutting TA support. There are lots of ways of supporting children that does not involve taking the child out of the classroom. TAs can be effective when managed well and not doing tasks that they aren't qualified for.

Some fsm children have after school tutoring with a qualified teacher at dd's school.

One school near me has used the pupil premium to pay for a TA to listen to each reception child read for five minutes every day. Taking a child out of class activites for 5 minutes to pratice phonics is hardly taking them away from the teacher. Reception is all play based anyway so if a child practices their phonics with an adult during child initated play then they won't miss much.

Schools have freedom how to spend fsm money, because every fsm child is different. However the school has to show that each fsm child is making progress and that they are narrowing the gap.

ReallyTired My experience of having TA support, is that it can cause a child receive less involvement from the class teacher, even when support is in the classroom. To the actual extent the class teacher cannot answer questions concerning their progress / current ability at a scheduled meeting.

I don't believe some children a 'genetically idiots' to coin your phrase ReallyTired. However I do believe children may come from different starting points, in different areas with an individual path of progression. The relationship between Nature and Nurture is complex. However I believe all have the potential to achieve well.

^are. Typo.

Also there are differences in cultural expectations between communities.The values of one culture are not necessarily intrinsically better than the values of another culture.

You obviously have a profoundly anti school- or at least anti state school- agenda, capsicum. I honestly don't think this discussion is going to get anywhere.

curlew I don't have an agenda. I am merely talking about the flaws in relation to funding, attainment of certain sectors of the population and how or whether funding should be targeted. I did not say there were no positives...

capsium a class teacher who cannot answer questions concerning progress / current ablity of a child is not doing their job. Certainly its bad practice for a teacher to hive off the SEN kids to the unqualified TA.

A lot depends on the setting. TAs are useful in early years, special schools and possibly key stage 1. If schools are going to take children in nappies then TA support is essential. Support staff can free up teachers' time by doing displays, registration and admin. Of course this has to be ofset by the work of managing a TA.

Before TAs many schools did not allow EBD children to do science experiements and other practical subjects like cookery or design and technology were challenging. Practial subjects can benefit from an extra adult in the classroom.

Schools need to think long and hard how best to spend budgets. It could be argued than a highly experienced outstanding teacher is a better use of money than paying for an NQT and TA.

I would actually like to see less emphasis on education. Less scrutiny, less assessments, no predictive grades, no homework for primary aged children. I would like for teachers to be left to teach and parents to be left to parent.

Many children are leaving school with copious qualifications which are then rendered meaningless by arguing over standards.

I think this is what fails children.

Also there are differences in cultural expectations between communities.

A line which was regularly used in the 1980s and 1990s to remove stretching education from deprived areas on the grounds that it wasn't "relevant" or "accessible". "These people don't have a cultural expectation of higher education, so it isn't relevant for them to study academic subjects". The qualifications and curriculum advanced as an alternative was always lower demand, lower status, lower value.

It's the racism (and classism) of low expectations.

Removing the opportunity to succeed from people and claiming it's for their own good is simply patronising. Why can't children on tough housing estates learn Latin or Further Maths? Why is it "more relevant" in affluent areas? Does Waitrose require you to speak to the staff in the manner of the Roman court and then do Gaussian elimination to work out the prices? Although actually, figuring out their special offers is probably NP-Complete and setting up a large system of equations might be the only way to make effective use of their three for twos when taken in combination with 10% off for MyWaitrose.

Removing the opportunity to succeed from people and claiming it's for their own good is simply patronising.

I agree it is when it is done to people. However if they choose a different path for themselves they should be allowed to make that choice. For example many trades are very lucrative. Why are technical qualifications seen as less valid than academic ones? A person in IT can earn more money than a research scientist, yet the most useful qualifications tend to be within the industry not university.

"Many children are leaving school with copious qualifications which are then rendered meaningless by arguing over standards.

I think this is what fails children."

So you want other children to be prevented from achieving so that your children's qualifications make them stand out.

So you want other children to be prevented from achieving so that your children's qualifications make them stand out.

Er no. Simply arguing over standards devalues qualifications.

"I agree it is when it is done to people. However if they choose a different path for themselves they should be allowed to make that choice."

i am seeing more than a touch of "the rich man in his castle, the poor man at the gate- He made them high or lowly and ordered their estate" on this thread.

Children from disadvantaged backgrounds are just drawn towards manual trades and football just as children from privileged backgrounds are drawn towards Latin and rugby. It's not better or worse, just different^..........

If schools are going to take children in nappies then TA support is essential.

Why do many schools have a policy of calling the parent up to change a Reception aged child who has soiled in themselves, leaving them in soiled clothing until the parent arrives? On quite a few threads on here, TAs did not even think they were allowed to change children, even when there was a medical issue which made soiling a strong possibility.

A person in IT can earn more money than a research scientist, yet the most useful qualifications tend to be within the industry not university.

It's just hard to know where to start with that, really.

Most people moving into the best paid IT jobs today will have good STEM degrees. Most of those STEM degrees involve A Level maths.

Children from disadvantaged backgrounds are just drawn towards manual trades and football just as children from privileged backgrounds are ^drawn towards Latin and rugby. It's not better or worse, just different..........

Not quite. I think it is just as viable option for the Upper Classes to choose to work in a trade, or craft. It can be extremely satisfying and lucrative.

frady my DH works in IT and is well paid. He has an IT degree from a Red Brick university. Gained entry through HNC, HND etc. No A-Levels. Many people he works with, at his level and above have no degrees.

^Friday Typo.

He has hired people without degrees too...