to want to move house in London just because the area where I live has become extremely poncey?

[Mintyy]

Yes, yes, of course we have been unbelievably lucky that we chose to live somewhere that became gentrified and therefore have made a lot of money on our house.

However.

We now feel like we have less and less in common with the people who live here. We are 49 and 51 and have good but not outstanding incomes.

I have just discovered that my new neighbours (who paid an extraordinary amount for their extremely average terraced house) are newlyweds in their early 30s. They are going to be doing building works, so I am imagine an extension and a loft conversion.

We are going to have nothing whatsoever in common with them are we?

I sincerely yearn for more authentic London living. Either inner city or further out and less pretentious and overpriced than where we are now.

Such a pita to have to move though! And nothing on the market .

Thanks and apologies folks, but I am ducking out of this daft thread. The inability of some posters to see that they themselves are one of the causes of the social change that they are complaining about is ludicrous. Yes, I have been an 'incomer' in a north london area, building an extension and living a middle-class lifestyle. But, I also taught in local schools, volunteered in a local children's centre, regularly visited the elderly couple next door to me, stepping up those visits whilst the husband was dying (the born and bred Londoner the other side never called in and only realised he had gone three weeks later...) and consistently shopped in local businesses. We have left that area now, but I don't think that I took out much more than I contributed in return.

OP, you like an area, then stay put and do something to increase community mixing, retain local businesses or whatever it is you want to see. Becoming a local councillor, setting up a street play initiative or a shop-local scheme would be a good start.

what do you want OP crackheads in the stairwell?

besides it might have been people like you moving in that was part of the gentrification?

Oh whatever..

Pobble do you think a Waitrose in Streatham might be on the way? In the new development on the old bowling alley? (secretly and hypocritically hope so)

I heard a rumour that Waitrose was going where Kwik Fit is. But apparently not!

Would be nice though.

You sound nice.

Your new neighbours sound very like me and DH. And indeed when we moved into our first house 4 years ago we had some sniffy reactions for being perceived as part of a young, potentially negative, influx. We did do a loft and an extension.

We also joined the residents association and became pretty active in it. We helped organise a street party. We made loads of friends, both with people 'like us', middle aged people, foreign born people, and elderly people who had been born in the houses they still lived in. We love the area so much, and the people we know here, that when we moved this year it was to one street away.

The sniffy people weren't worried about gentrification per se (my area has never been gritty, just slightly shabby and forgotten about, and the houses are so small and pokey that there's limited scope for massive gentrification), but the houses are small starter homes with a quick turnover, and they're rising ridiculously in value. People worried that young couples moving in won't care about the area, or their neighbours, and would only care about the place as an investment.

None of which is actually the case. It has an unusually active residents association and is amazingly friendly (quite unbelievably so for London). It has the most thriving high street in London, and lots of independent businesses. People move there for convenience and slowly fall in love.

The ironic thing is that most people who yearn for grittiness and 'real' London sneer at it for being soulless. It seems to have escaped the gritty-poncy trajectory and has simply gone from being nice in a quiet and shabby way to nice in a slightly less shabby way. But it's fairly 'authentic' in that it's a dull lower middle class railway suburb just as it always has been.

I think people sometimes rather want to pick and choose their own version of 'authentic'.

Oh and sneering at your new neighbours for spending so much on their house is particularly harsh - it's not like anyone has much choice nowadays in London, is it?

Think there is an element of atavism here, wishing things hadn't changed, when the thrilling thing about cities is the constant inevitable change that, as Branching said, we're all part of - and will continue to all be part of, whether we're living in certain postcodes or not.

It's all subject to huge forces. Like those complaining about pubs becoming tapas joints - well, if they hadn't, then they may not have survived. Since the smoking ban, many pubs in my old home town are now derelict. Some in my corner of SE London are also standing empty. But others have transformed to focus on food and are now doing well. The cost of a pint is pretty extortionate and there's a gulf between those who there and those who go to the Wetherspoons, same as the gulf between the cupcake shops and the Peacocks.

It's the same story in lots of industries these days. You have the monoliths (Hollywood movies, supermarkets etc) and the indie sector. The middle ground is going, even though it's where most of us are at in terms of incomes, values etc. This is where the positive side is for me, if we want a positive rather than wistfulness for the past or dread about the future - whether you see a sea of different nationalities or a sea of bugaboos, I think you might find as much or as little in common with them as people either way. We are diverse and we are communal and whatever changes, I don't believe that ever will.

Sorry, that went on a bit! As you were...

I accept that things always change, and London in particular. But it is very hard to be part of a minority group that is losing out in the changes.

Losing having a community, an identity, a place where there is a critical mass of you that makes you feel less vulnerable, less unwelcome, less impermanent. I accept too that there may well be upsides to the changes, but I'm not seeing them at the moment.

As an aside, shoot me down if you like, but I'm all for the gentrification of Elephant & Castle. It's been a grotty wasteland ever since I moved to London 20+ years ago. Seriously, tell me what the great thing about it is that needs preserving? It's baffled me how somewhere in Z1 could've stayed so shit for so long. With the whole of the Walworth Road brimming with diverse shops and markets, I don't think the surrounding area is in any danger of becoming cupcakeville, but the actual E&C itself and that top end of Old Kent Road - honestly? You want it kept like it was??

"it is very hard to be part of a minority group that is losing out in the changes."

I think I understand, but it's such a tricky balance. I don't know how that feeling you describe is different to me moving to a bit of W London that I then discovered was mainly a Polish community. I didn't need a critical mass of 'me'. I just thought it was interesting.

Or, in a more sinister way, what you said could echo some people back in my hometown up north who made similar arguments about the Asian community taking over the town. And they have taken it over, and otherwise it'd have died to be honest.

We are vulnerable and impermanent. The key is the unwelcome part. As you say, we need to feel part of a community, whether they're superficially like us or not. And usually through schools etc, they still exist. If not, then that is a problem. But then you could say that London's hardly famed for its welcoming community and if you really wanted that, you should probably move out anyway. Sure lots of us here want the impossible mix of a great community and being rude London a-holes too!

The inability of some posters to see that they themselves are one of the causes of the social change that they are complaining about is ludicrous

thats very very true. I kind of miss being young and single, back then all I cared about was being near a tube and a few nice bars, and my mates.

Once you have kids London becomes a fxxxxxg nigntmare, as I kind of dont fit in anywhere. I feel a bit isolated where I live as its VERY Polish (that said have made some very nice Polish mates), and yet I am also a newbie when you look at the demographic , so go figure!

Yet I dont want to move further out, and cant afford to move further in

When I arrived in the UK my Mum rented a dirt cheap one bedroom flat on the top floor of an old terraced house / building.
The two rooms were huge but freezing, no lift and many of the buildings were seriously run down and half empty.

The identical one next door is currently on the market for £1.3 million
because South Ken is trendy now.

It all goes in cycles.

Oh, I think London is, in its own admittedly not always very attractive way, rather welcoming. It is the place where lots of us feel at home precisely because it always, has been diverse. We arrive and breathe a huge sigh of relief that it's possible to be ourselves here.

Admittedly that is because there is always someone else, brown-toothed and can-swigging, worse off than you: and I have in the past found that perhaps more of a consolation than I ideally should have

I think I understand, but it's such a tricky balance. I don't know how that feeling you describe is different to me moving to a bit of W London that I then discovered was mainly a Polish community. I didn't need a critical mass of 'me'. I just thought it was interesting.

Are you white, if you don't mind my asking? Because it is much easier to say that as a member of the majority population.

This isn't personal, guys. It's just observation.

Cities do change. But the change in London is so rapid. I don't remember the same level of stratification between the wealthy and less wealthy when I was growing up. People moving to London just seem to accept this as normal - but it hasn't always been like this.

And I agree about Elephant and Castle.

Nobody is allowed say anything now. It's so tiring really.

I hope that post is not directed at me.

Mine? no. Just an observation. A poster finds an area too gentrified, it all gets heated and accusations of snobbery abound. Another poster thinks her child's school is rough and she wants better and she's told to get over herself.

Ubik1
I don't remember the same level of stratification between the wealthy and less wealthy when I was growing up.
Interestingly that is the exact opposite of what I saw in South Ken in the early 1970's
The Gulf Oil money was flowing, they were posing around in their Rolls Royces, buying up everything, letting it sit empty, but ramping up prices and rents, because they could.
At the time it was the old Georgian buildings, now its the flash new apartment blocks - they never plan to live there, its just a savings account for the super rich.
And the impact affects those who are looking for somewhere to live and send their kids to school.

OK, cool. Things get very...accusatory and angry very quickly on MN at the moment, it's a shame.

MrsDeVere I think I remember you as living in Walthamstow? We're currently living in West Croydon and we've been thinking of moving to Walthamstow or Redbridge, for a new job, so that we are closer to my work. Any advice about Walthamstow (limited budget)? (If you aren't in Walthamstow, sorry!)

It is astonishing that E&C has taken far too long to sort out.
Gentrification and slumification does go in waves. My black childminder recently commented that she didn't want the character of Brixton to change and I thought silently "change from whose viewpoint? My parents remember when Brixton was a white area."

In East London there is a place of worship that has been a french hugenot church, a synagogue and is now a mosque - as the swirling demographics have changed over the generations.