To think that belief in Father Christmas is not comparable to religious belief.

[Throughthelongnight]

Just that really. I have noticed that the expectation is that we all go along with the pretence of FC for the sake of parent's children's sensibility, but the same is not afforded where religious belief is concerned.

Still can't answer straight questions I see...

Gosh That's ok. No one has to care about atrocities. And I'm mostly arguing that they are ordered by people, not Allah or God, because there's no such thing. I would like to take away the motive for much of it by convincing people of that.

I'm not sure how we got onto the violence. Usually it's because some believer says religious people are not violent.

The Koran is a flawed document.
Either god is flawed or he didn't write it.

So we are at least in agreement that the hadiths are out of date?

that is your belief but i suggest you read the koran not just pick bits out to suit your argument (apart from homosexuality but i am not aware of any religion that is tolerant towards homosexuality but i know people of all religions that are as religion teaches people to be tolerant)

and to what a billion people, the vast majority who live peacefully it is not

read the koran not just pick bits out to suit your argument

Why not? that's how everyone else uses their holy book. Otherwise you'd just have one religion per holy book.

Kitten - asking you to study something properly is not deflection or double think. Telling you that cherry picking verses divorced from their wider context or meaning is pointless is also not deflection or double think.

The links I've made respond to your points adequately.

Back - I generally disbelieve very strongly in pure or single motives for violence or conflict, such arguments are simplistic and ignore wider circumstances. Thus declaring that religion causes violence, therefore no religion equals less violence, is not a convincing hypothesis for me.

I do wish I'd have taken a highlighter and some post it notes so I could remember each time I LOL'd or was at something I read in the quran.

The thing is people saying it's the book of god, surely god would have made sure his 'holy book' was unable to be misinterpreted. There's all sorts of debates between Muslims about different interpretations, and whether or not to use Hadiths alongside. It's far too varied, there's no structure. Same goes for the bible.

because you can pick bits out that just suit your argument

you can do that about anything, the daily mail reports in this way

what is written becomes distorted, untrue of what the message is actually about

I've read a fair bit of the Koran and I'm not encouraged to read more.
I agree that all religions are rubbish, but at least Christians, mostly, don't think that the bible is the direct word of god.
There is some room for interpretation.
Perhaps you could say what is good about your religion. I get the dislike of usury, I can understand the attitude to alcohol, and fasting to remind yourself about the poor.
However, no homosexuals, no sex before marriage, intolerance, bigotry and sexism don't float my boat.
As for the attitude to dogs...

Do you - generally, al ikhtilaf - or difference of opinion is deemed to be a good thing in Islam.

However, I'm sure if there was one sole interpretation of Islam and all Muslims thought exactly the same as a monolithic entity, people on here wouldn't be happy with that either. If you (in the general sense) don't like religion, you probably don't care if interpretations are diverse or monolithic.

And I forgot to mention slavery

I do care gosh, because it is important.
We are told there is only one interpretation of the Koran, and I don't like it. I'm hoping that you have another view.

Let's get this true christian and true muslim out of the way.

Seems like a lot of people are trying to put words in my mouth. Did I say that? I think if your read back what you will see is that I wrote there are differences of opinion on certain issues. Thanks for letting me know though that you actually didn't really care what I (or other muslim mumnetters) actually think about apostasy laws and that actually the only voice that you take seriously is the voice of the nutters. I guess you were making a statement rather than asking a question. That teaches me not to waste my time replying to someone who has already made up their mind and come to a conclusion before I've even opened my mouth.

Also its not huge numbers of muslims. If huge numbers of muslims believed in what radical muslim groups believed in there would be much more bloodshed and killing then there is now. By the way if these radical muslim groups are entirely motivated by religion (the true muslims according to some EDL types) then which verse in the Quran authorises groups like the Taliban, Al Qaida, Boko Haram or al Shabab to slaughter innocent muslims who are by and large the biggest victims of their violence? Hmm. The answer is there is no verse. There is no hadith. These people are not acting on the teachings of the religion they are using the religion to achieve a political aim or goal. As for it being my word against theirs (or something to that effect) actually its not just my opinion but the opinion of hundreds of thousands of scholars/ulama/imams who condemn the violence of these groups as being against the teachings of Islam.

theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/muslim_voices_against_extremism_and_terrorism_part_i_fatwas/

kurzman.unc.edu/islamic-statements-against-terrorism/

www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-eteraz/the-myth-of-muslim-condem_b_67904.html

So you can say that I as a layperson do not have the right to copyright the religion or to say my opinion is stronger but when you have the multitude of the world's prominent, muslim, orthodox, scholars saying the same thing then that tells you that maybe you shouldnt take the proclamations of the terrorists as factual in particular when their religions own clergy (for want of a better word) dont.

Anyway I can see where this is going. Next you will be asking me to apologise for honour killings so I think I will have to agree to disagree with you.

Kitten, what is your opinion on Bashar Assad's murderous dictatorship in Syria? What is your opinion of Israel's illegal occupation and settlement building on Palestinian land? What was your opinion on the Iraq war? What is your opinion on the plight of the Rohingya muslim's in Burma who are being persecuted by their Buddhist countrymen?

You have your yardstick and I have mine. Oh and it is as relevant to this discussion about Santa as apostasy in Islam is dont you know. Because your answer determines whether I will consider you to be a worthy enough human being for me to speak to.

Btw gosh, I am very well educated, thank you, and know when someone is avoiding the issues.

Back, what are the huge numbers of Christians and Muslims who "abuse or kill gay people or unbelievers" and how do those numbers translate into a % of Christians and Muslims as a whole?

What has my opinion on those matters got to do with it?
More avoidance tactics.
And actually, I probably agree with you about most of them.

From peaceful's post upthread:

" Islam is not a monolithic religion. It encompasses multiple opinions. Differences in interpretations have existed since the beginning of Islam and in fact are accepted.

There are certain essential points that all Muslims would agree with (things like the 5 pillars, certain theological principles etc) but when it comes to sharia in particular you can get a wide spectrum of scholarly opinions. There is no such thing as one sharia or the book of sharia laws so in that sense yes there are Islams. "

If you go and google the 5 pillars - that's the agreed upon essentials. The Prophet's last sermon is also a good summary of what is deemed essential in the religion: www.islamicity.com/mosque/lastserm.HTM

If, for example, you were to google dogs in Islam, you would find several opinions according to various schools of thought. E.g, the Maliki school does not think dogs are unclean.

How and why the schools of fiqh (Islamic jurisprudence) come to different conclusions is for you to study further, if you are interested.

Still no answer
Should apostates be killed, yes or no?
Are women equal to men, yes or no?
Should homosexuals be killed?
And are these things that you could say in your mosque, sitting at the back, or behind a curtain etc.
Must go and spend time with my lovely husband and dog now.
It's been fun, but you do need to adopt a bit more rigorous style of thinking.

Kitten - no one has avoided you on anything. You gave verses, we gave answers to those very verses, with links as a back up. Stop continually twisting people's responses to you.

Oh Kitten dont waste your time with us. Go back to the Council of Ex-muslims. They will obviously give you a much more unbiased and nuanced interpretation of Islam then the religions actual followers could. Oh and next time I have a question about christianity or Jesus Christ I will go ask Richard Dawkins or Sam Harris. Right?

I'm sure I had answered this already but

1)No
2)Yes
3)No

I would say those statements anywhere.

Also, I'm stunned you can complain about Muslims not liking dogs, have you not read most of the dog threads on here?!

Oh peaceful - it's all for our own good, you know. What would we do without people to tell us all about our own religion?

Yes go and spend time with your actual dog. We dont have to jump to your command. You answer my questions and I will answer yours.

If people take umbrage at me saying explaining about the entirely provable, well-known and totally accepted facts about the religious frameworks in which great figures of the past were forced to work within (oh, that pesky truth! Why does it always insist on trying to ruin everything?!) and insist that their religious beliefs cannot be separated from their achievements, do you conversely accept and agree that my Atheism cannot be separated from my achievements and aids my intelligence? Because I have a PhD. And if it does (and it has to, if religious belief is being claimed as an aid to greatness), then surely it actually negates the argument that religion does actually aid greatness?

And no-one has STILL answered my very simple question about how does believing in something purely because a book says so, not sound a bit mentally ill? It is a genuine question.