To think that belief in Father Christmas is not comparable to religious belief.

[Throughthelongnight]

Just that really. I have noticed that the expectation is that we all go along with the pretence of FC for the sake of parent's children's sensibility, but the same is not afforded where religious belief is concerned.

So, basically, the Koran is out of date?

Kitten basically - no.

Kitten dont involve me in your agenda.

But peaceful optimist just said it was.
That the stuff in it was applicable to the time it was written, but not now.

I'm just trying to get it clear. No agenda except for getting at
The truth.

What did you mean then?

Kitten - If you were really interested in getting it clear, you would go on the big wide internet and do some research yourself, instead of demanding that Muslim posters take up their time to spoon feed you, particularly when judging from your previous posts here, you are only likely to mock their efforts.

There is a very grim tendency on these threads (for there have been many like this) for certain posters to foot stamp and demand that all their questions are answered by Muslim women, because they can't be bothered to go and look for themselves.

It smacks of viewing Muslim women as lesser beings that have to prove themselves to you and obey you, otherwise they are bad and unhelpful Muslims who aren't "helping you".

As I said, it's grim.

I'm very glad that mumsnet have given us a chance to exchange views and that you have come on here to put your case.
However if you are going to cry 'it's not fair' when someone puts forward a very reasonable question then you are deluding yourself.
The question is reasonable.
Why don't you answer it?

Btw I have done a lot of research and have been very involved with organisations such as the council for ex Muslims, so I am aware of the dangers of apostacy.
I would be very glad to hear that these ideas are now out of date.

I did. You asked, I answered. My answer was no.

Tbh, if you'd read peaceful's post properly you wouldn't have needed to ask such a specious question.

Also, suggesting you do some reading yourself rather then expecting to be spoonfed answers is not the same as saying "it's not fair".

To think that if someone really wanted to know something, they would look into it, is really not such an outrageous assumption.

You seem to disagree about this.
So according to you, the Koran should be followed exactly as written?
So apostates should be killed, women are worth half a man, etc etc etc.
I have done lots of research. I just want to know if you understand how inconsistent you are being.

You do not have the right to decide how much their religion did or did not influence them Why not? You are!.

Let's get this true christian and true muslim out of the way.

There are versions of every religion. There are huge numbers of people who follow a different Islam or a different Christianity. They abuse or kill gay people or unbelievers and commit other atrocities too numerous to mention.

You can tell me that is not how it should be and produce verses to prove it, but that doesn't alter the reality.

You may be sure yours is right, but none of you own the copyright so they are just as 'right' as you are. Feel free to complain to them about it, not to me.

Maybe you are nice and your version is gentler. If so perhaps you could come to some arrangement with them so you can have a different name and holy book. I don't say you must, that's entirely your affair.

In the meantime religious people will continue to do evil things and justify it by saying that's what Allah or Jesus wants them to do and I will continue to criticise them.

I will also cast doubt on any of you having the truth since you can't agree on what the truth is.

Btw, the poor woman who was 'given the chance to escape'. Where was she supposed to go? Was this even feasible at the time.

Kitten, what "truth" are you trying to get to?

One thing.
Should apostates be killed or not?

Kitten -

The Quran does not say apostates should be killed. You will not find a verse saying this.

Again, peaceful as given you an insight into the composition of Islamic law, in short, it's not just about the Quran.

The Quran does not say that women are worth half a man. You won't find find a verse saying this either.

Back - so this whole sturm and dang is because some people do bad things in the name of X. Lots of people to bad things in the name of whatever, so why is it just the religious people you criticise and what on earth is complaining on Mumsnet going to do about violence in Pakistan?

Verse 228b
Verse 4:89
I now get some more

Do you think apostates should be killed?

9: 11-12
Do the hadiths count or not?

kitten stop being so foolish

we can all pull up things from the bible or the koran to prove a point but without reading it all it makes no sense

i take it you have read it all and the hadith's?

Verse 2:228 - Is about degrees of responsibility! It does not say a women is worth half a man and a good summary of this is here:

www.answering-christianity.com/karim/men_and_women_daraja.htm

Verse 4:89 - full explanation here:
theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/quran_489_commentary/

The piece I've linked also gives the Quranic verse condemning murder.

This is boring. Someone did this last week and I went and refuted allll the cherry picking and nary a thanks did I get.

But Freudian is right, picking bits of Quran and Hadith out of their wider context to try and prove a point is poor argumentation indeed.

4:34
Don't you be foolish. You can't get away with deflection and double think.
You wont answer straight questions which makes me suspicious.
What a nonsense about reading everything in the world before you can have an opinion.
A lot of the sites I'm looking at are those where Muslim scholars are having a debate

Do you believe women are worth the same as men?
Should apostates be killed?
You can twist the Koran all you like but it is deeply intolerant.
What about homosexuals?

maybe you better join them kitten obviously you know the truth their years of studying has been pointless