to hate it when famous people die

[2rebecca]

OK I'm in for a flaming, but I'm in my late 40s, I lived through the ANC/apartheid/ "free Nelson Mandela"avoiding S African fruit in supermarkets/ being delighted when he was released and became an excellent president, sad when his successor was an HIV denying plonker,and the fact that S Africa is developing corruption levels like the rest of Africa and still has a huge violence problem (mainly black on black), but find the wall to wall media coverage completely OTT.
Obituaries are interesting when they are brief and concern someone whose story you don't know. When they are endless and cover someone whose story has been extensively documented it just makes me avoid the media.
It's nothing against Nelson, when the queen dies it will be even worse , and every time a media luvvie dies the media goes into overdrive.
All I needed to hear today was "Nelson Mandela has died", not everyone and their dog repeating stuff I've heard before, especially as I heard it last night anyway.
Someone famous dying is news, endless anecdotes and preprepared staements aren't news.

And then ask yourselves also: If my family and friends were oppressed and treated like slaves for generation after generation; if we were not allowed to vote or speak our own language (check out the education policy relating to language in schools practised under apartheid); if we were banned from most types of work; if we were shot with impunity by the white police when we peacefully protested; if year after year after year of protest had got us precisely nowhere; if protest became an offence of treason and we could then be imprisoned for many years;

What would you do?

I know what I would do. And that is what the ANC was forced to do. And thank God they did.

No sanctification here flatpackhamster. I am not so deluded and unrealistic as to be a pacifist. Where would we be without armed struggle? IMO Mandela did what he had to do. I believe in civil disobedience and I believe in armed struggle in some situations and Apartheid was certainly one of those.

donnie
No sanctification here flatpackhamster. I am not so deluded and unrealistic as to be a pacifist. Where would we be without armed struggle? IMO Mandela did what he had to do. I believe in civil disobedience and I believe in armed struggle in some situations and Apartheid was certainly one of those.

Well then why object to calling Mandela a murderer? Aren't you denying an important part of his struggle and the reality of it? I just feel you're trying to make the whole good/bad argument too simplistic when it's part of a complex history.

Thank you to those of you who have taken the time to make it abundantly clear why Mandela deserves his legacy as a great man of our time. I was too young to fully appreciate the horror of apartheid when it was going on but coverage like this educates both myself and my children and I am grateful for it. Just like any other shameful period in our human history, we MUST never forget it, lest we repeat it. Mandela to me signifies the hope in humanity, that amongst a sea of bad that good can ultimately win. His message was of inclusiveness and forgiveness. He never said he was a saint, just a man who kept trying against almost impossible odds and achieved to boot. We need more like him in our world to inspire us and future generations. It really saddens me that some people have such a narrow and frankly blinkered view that they can ignore the many many good things he said and did and choose focus on the negative. Someone already said that it's views like that that allowed apartheid to come to being and continue, and I fully agree.

I hope those of you 'sick of all the coverage' and 'wasn't he a terrorist' lot take the opportunity to learn something and open your minds to a more enlightened way of thinking. I can't imagine being subjected to the blatant and legalised oppression of either apartheid or nazi Germany (and thankful a billion times for it) but I can tell you that as a mum, a wife, a daughter, sister and a friend that I would fight to the death to protect my family and those I love. If that makes me a terrorist then so be it.

I don't think South Africans are trying to separate what he did earlier from what he was later. That's part of the amazing thing about NM - he managed to go from the military wing of the ANC to prison to a man who managed to bridge the divide between whites and blacks. I don't think he was a saint and I don't want him to be. If he is just a man then we can all try to do the things he did.

Apartheid like the Holocaust is an example of Human beings at their worst. The fact that they are in our very recent history and that these crimes against humanity continue to impact the affected peoples should be of interest to us all.

Unless we can all learn from these episodes and understand the dangers of racism at all levels we as humans are doomed to witnessing and experiencing such episodes again.

Already in this world too many people are living miserable lives, oppressed and confined at the ideological whim of more powerful ethnic groups. They live with no hope other than the release of death. There are those who dare to dream of better for themselves and their children. The use of physical force is sometimes the only method available to them in a system that is designed to keep them confined.

One day possibly in the not to distant future the more powerful ethnic group may not be the one that you belong to. You and the people you love may be subjected to physical and mental cruelty at the hands of others who believe an ideology that says you are inferior and that as a result there is justification for denying you access to the things you take for granted now like healthcare, a comfortable home, the opportunity to live with and raise your DC, food, clean water, education. Some in that powerful ethnic group will push for you to be subjected to the ultimate objection of racist ideology - extermination.

Your only hope may be that somewhere where they are telling the story of Nelson Mandela 'ad nauseum' on the tv news there is someone who learns enough to be a voice saying no, this is wrong.

A truly great man ( not a saint, no) has died and his life and struggle should be a lesson to us all. The greatest gift Nelson Mandela may have given to us in the Western world is the concept of reconciliation over revenge. One day the tables may be turned and we will be hoping that the leader of the new super power is a person inspired by Nelson Mandela.

Do people refer to their grandparents who fought in ww2 as murderers? Just wondering?

I think calling him a murderer while not pointing out that he was fighting against not just a country that killed thousands of his people, but a world - including our own country - that supported their oppression and death is a disingenuious way of looking at it and frames it in a way that supports the oppressor and ignores that it was only through their violent actions that anyone listened.

"“I came to the conclusion that as violence in this country was inevitable, it would be unrealistic to continue preaching peace and non-violence. This conclusion was not easily arrived at. It was only when all else had failed, when all channels of peaceful protest had been barred to us, that the decision was made to embark on violent forms of political struggle. I can only say that I felt morally obliged to do what I did.”
— Nelson Mandela, "An ideal for which I am prepared to die". Mandela made this statement from the dock at the opening of his trial on charges of sabotage, Supreme court of South Africa, Pretoria, April 20 1964.

He came out of 27 years in prison and worked to fix the wounds - including the ones he caused himself. He mourned the actions that he helped to achieve even claiming. Because as valuable as peace and nonviolence are, freedom by any means necessary - including his own life - was what was needed.

We have to remember that Mandela was listed as a terrorist until 2008, four years after he retired, by Western governments while those he fought against were not. His anti-white supremacy stance is why they always want to remember that he was a terrorist, not that his terrorism was a last resort for what they supported and still support, that the white governments of the world supported their destruction and oppression until their actions were met with similar. Even with his anti-black supremacy stance and all the peace he worked for, his image is still tainted for the aims of others (much like Gandi's new fluffy image, ignoring he supported the apartheid movement, was anti-Black and hated that Indians would be considered so, and that his pro-caste and anti-woman stance still affect India today - but we don't need to remember these "antics" to remember the struggle he fought for).

Yabu he helped changed a nation in a short period of time while south Africa maynot be fixed he ended a regime , I am very sad he has died yes I know he was 95 but he deserves every bit of news coverage going, normally I agree about public mourning and i was astounded at how sad I was ,

I haven't had the TV on so haven't been affected by blanket coverage of Nelson Mandela's death. It's really not that difficult to avoid.

I am also against violence, however I know there are certain situations (if someone abused my kids for example) where I would hunt down the abuser & murder him myself. So I don't think you can say what you would or wouldn't do until you're in a specific situation.

I didn't know about the pencil test until I read this thread, but it strongly reminds me of the nazis measuring noses to see if a person is Jewish.

I despair of this world sometimes, I really do.

I am a black South African, aged 16 when he became leader. He was no a saint (not that anyone is suggesting he is) he authorised many deaths, many, many deaths, of innocents. A friend I met at university lost her mother. Because of NM agreeing to the terrorism.

He never said he was perfect, he admitted everything he did and he saved many other lives. We all suffered daily violence, repeated violence. He himself said he mourned what he did. He was a great man. He did so much. He made horrible, horrible events happen but he worked so, so hard to make them all right too, to make South Africa a better place. The legacy we have, the freedom I had as an adult in SA, is largely due to him.

I think the repeated programmes and docs about him are a bit much, they seem to be jumping on the bandwagon (although were probably prepared before death, for eventualities) and I think having one or two great documentaries would be better. I'm not pleased that he died but I'm also grateful that he did, he was suffering, suffering a lot, in his old age. He was a wonderful man and I'm glad that he has been released from that. I'm also glad that people are choosing to mark him by singing and dancing in SA (I have some family members who were on the news doing just that actually).

tinmug thank you for the link, I guessed what it must mean.

Yes I knew about the buses and the benches.

How could anyone not be appalled by apartheid and how anybody on here could liken some of the activists to the IRA is completely beyond me.

There was something on Channel 4 the other night about camps for young right wing South African men which was very depressing. There is still clearly a massive problem with racism, it was so ingrained.

As for hating it when famous people die from the original OP, I would hardly call Nelson Mandela 'famous' in the way you might call Tom Cruise 'famous' seems very fatuous to me . How you can lump him in with celebrity is beyond me so yabu.

YABU because ...

1 He was a great man who achieved so much and has a lot to teach us about how to live peacefully alongside one another and how to be a good leader and human being.

2 News in now available 24/7 and you need to take responsibility for choosing how much of it you want to watch/hear

3 I don't like your tone

Fantastic post OhWell.

Its funny how its the oppressed people who are expected to reject violence. If they are presumptuous enough to fight back, then its morally wrong apparently. They are called terrorists.

There will always be terrorists.Britain creates them, America creates them. Every corrupt regime creates them. They are created when people are treated wrongly with no other means of redress.

Faced with the south African regime with nothing but povery and servitude in front of me, with no future for my children, I would have used violence too, as much as it took. And having having come out of decades in prison I would have been incapable of finding the magnanimity to work along side the people who had done all this.

OhWell brilliant post! You said what I was trying to say so much more eloquently than I did!
He should be celebrated for what he did to unite SA, but also for how he changed as an individual while in prison.
Emphasis should be on how there is redemption for everyone if they are willing to change. There are so many messages and lessons that we can take from his life.
môreosnogadag - great name by the way

We have to remember that Mandela was listed as a terrorist until 2008, four years after he retired, by Western governments while those he fought against were not. His anti-white supremacy stance is why they always want to remember that he was a terrorist, not that his terrorism was a last resort for what they supported and still support, that the white governments of the world supported their destruction and oppression until their actions were met with similar. Even with his anti-black supremacy stance and all the peace he worked for, his image is still tainted for the aims of others (much like Gandi's new fluffy image, ignoring he supported the apartheid movement, was anti-Black and hated that Indians would be considered so, and that his pro-caste and anti-woman stance still affect India today - but we don't need to remember these "antics" to remember the struggle he fought for).

Good points - about Ghandi too.

The only thing that I don't like is when someone pretends to have liked a person when they did not when they were alive. If you disagreed them, perhaps be silent, or just think of those who loved the person who are bereaved.

Interesting link kungfupannda

I think there’s going to be lots of right wing revisionism in the next few days as politicians and slebs seek to rewrite their own history to bask in NM’s reflected glory.

I’ve just stumbled across the facebook page of an old acquaintance from university days here in SA. Lots of fluffy outpourings about NM. Funny that I remember this individual rounding on me, moaning that protests were ruining the “atmosphere” on campus and the terrorists (that would be NM) and “radical communists” (that would be me ) were the problem in SA (not apartheid ).

Who knows? Let’s be charitable (in the Madiba spirit) and hope this individual has changed her attitudes in her new country but you do wonder.

Not that I judge anyone who chooses to leave SA. It is in many ways a tough country to live in. A close friend felt compelled to leave following an attack in her home after which her DS developed bad anxiety issues. Most of my friends who have left are heartbroken and miss this crazy place like mad.

We do miss it. Africa is in my blood, it's my foundation. I will deeply love my country until my dying day, but unfortunately right now it's not the right place for me and my family. One day though...

flatpackhamster

what do you make of this comment?

"Do people refer to their grandparents who fought in ww2 as murderers? Just wondering?"

Since you are being so black and white about things.

And this excellent comment by Monty

"Its funny how its the oppressed people who are expected to reject violence. If they are presumptuous enough to fight back, then its morally wrong apparently. They are called terrorists."

Yes there are some people on Facebook that I've seen saying what a lovely place SA was to visit before, and now it's descended into violence- yes, lets ignore the fact that an entire people, oppressed, shot in the streets and denied an education are now free, it's ruining my chances of a good holiday! Ridiculous! And a surprising amount of people think that way!

You never know BigFatGoalie - one day - I know how hard it is - you have to do what is best for your family with the information you have at the moment.

I am hopeful still. Contrary to what the Daily Mail says I don't think there's going to be a bloodbath here now NM is gone .

In fact, I have high hopes for the new Agang movement led by the amazing Mamphela Ramphele. I reckon she is capable of being the next NM. If I was Jacob Zuma I would be afraid, very afraid!

mrsspagbol

flatpackhamster

what do you make of this comment?

"Do people refer to their grandparents who fought in ww2 as murderers? Just wondering?"

Since you are being so black and white about things.

Amusing that you think I'm being 'black and white' when what I'm objecting to is the repainting in primary colours of Mandela's life. His life was complex and already it's being hijacked by people who want to see him as This Great Man Who Always Did Good Things.

I think it's a stupid comment, btw, and once again denies the complexity of the situation.

And this excellent comment by Monty

"Its funny how its the oppressed people who are expected to reject violence. If they are presumptuous enough to fight back, then its morally wrong apparently. They are called terrorists."

I think that's just as black and white and another stupid comment which denies the complexity of human violence and the myriad situations in which it has occurred between a group of people and the political structure they live under.

YANBU to hate it when famous people die, as long as you also hate it hen you hear of non-famous people dying. Death isn't nice.

YANBU to dislike the way that the death of someone notable is covered by the 24 hour media, the way they try and fill every minute with speculation and then reaction from people only very tangently connected to the deceased, then commentary from media talking head types. Obviously it was news that such a notable person died and some tributes from people who actually knew the man are reasonable.

But YABU if you have forgotton that you can switch off/change channels etc if the coverage has gotten too much. Viewing figures is the only thing that TV folk seem to listen to.

Personally I found it interesting to watch the documentary on BBC though as I was young when Mandela was released so didn't really know the whole story, just had a surface understanding of apartheid and his role in ending it.

On a lighter note, DH (who is 45) was delighted to hear Mandela described as "an angry young man" when he was jailed (at a similar age).