to hate it when famous people die

[2rebecca]

OK I'm in for a flaming, but I'm in my late 40s, I lived through the ANC/apartheid/ "free Nelson Mandela"avoiding S African fruit in supermarkets/ being delighted when he was released and became an excellent president, sad when his successor was an HIV denying plonker,and the fact that S Africa is developing corruption levels like the rest of Africa and still has a huge violence problem (mainly black on black), but find the wall to wall media coverage completely OTT.
Obituaries are interesting when they are brief and concern someone whose story you don't know. When they are endless and cover someone whose story has been extensively documented it just makes me avoid the media.
It's nothing against Nelson, when the queen dies it will be even worse , and every time a media luvvie dies the media goes into overdrive.
All I needed to hear today was "Nelson Mandela has died", not everyone and their dog repeating stuff I've heard before, especially as I heard it last night anyway.
Someone famous dying is news, endless anecdotes and preprepared staements aren't news.

[pigsinmud]

Er. Yabu about Mandela. Just watched BBC1 documentary with my 7 year old dd2.

[fancyanotherfez]

Yes, he probably was instrumental in the killings of people, and the ANC were undoubtedly involved in violence. I'm not sure what I would have done though in those circumstances. There are very few Gandhi's in this world and despite him, the struggle for independence in India was far from non violent. I just don't know the answer.Would more Black South Africans have died without him? How long do you try peaceful protest when you are denied the vote and fair trials, your children have to endure segregated substandard schools and medical treatment just because you are Black? I just don't know.
Also, some of the things that were said at his trial were exaggerated, because the government wanted him given the death penalty.

[Feminine]

jammie I don't have any heroes.

I certainly wouldn't have NM as one anyway.

I am quite informed on his antics before the world saw him as a cozy grandfather. I can't understand why more people can't do the same?

[theyoniwayisnorthwards]

It's tragic that he was born and grew up under a vicious regime.
It's tragic that the best part of his youth was spent locked away.
It's tragic that so many on here are trivialising the significance of this man. He was an inspirational leader who behaved with grace, integrity and foresight.

His actions had deep and wide reaching implications for Africa. He was a hero.

Sorry your bored, may I suggest you switch over to I'm a celebrity?

[tinmug]

Do some of you REALLY understand what apartheid was about? Do you know about the murder of Ruth First by the SA Security Services? Do you know about Steve Biko? Do you know about the Pass Laws? Sharpville? The pencil test in the hair ? FFS - some of you are a bloody disgrace. IRA my bloody foot !! And as for the use of the word 'famous' to describe him! You ought to be bloody ashamed of yourselves

Dear God, THIS, a thousand fucking times over.

People sniffing and wrinkling up their noses "Oh well he wasn't a SAINT you know, he was implicated in VIOLENCE" - hmmm ok, so it's safe to say that if this was the reality of your fucking life, you'd just - what? put your hand up and wait for your turn to ask nicely for your race not to be fucking murdered? Yeah alright then. Yeah. Ok.

[Tuhlulah]

YANBU -I am so so fed up with hearing about it. It'll go on for days now, until the funeral, and then hopefully it will die down.

[theyoniwayisnorthwards]

Few things give me the rage like self righteous ignorance. I have to hide this thread. It's ruining my mood.

[gordyslovesheep]

totally agreeing with Tinmug - I guess the resistance in occupied France/Poland etc where also terrorists

[startwig1982]

I was only 8 when he was released and due to us not having a tv in the early 90s I knew little about him. However, the last two days I've been absorbing the obituaries and documentaries as I didn't know much about him and wanted to learn. He was such a well known political figure and I didn't like the ignorance of not knowing what he did.
I knew about the apartheid but very little else as I wasn't taught it at school. How else are the younger generation to learn about such historical figures? Yabu.

[tinmug]

I am quite informed on his antics

Wowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.

[squoosh]

There are some willfully ignorant people on this thread.

[Feminine]

tinmug that is a powerful reminder of why things had to change in SA.

However, NM did a bit of that too... Didn't he?

Was that okay?

[Theknacktoflying]

Could it just be that he just happened to be important to many people?

[FraidyCat]

So does anyone disagree that he was instrumental in murders taking place?

Yes, I disagree. As far as I recall, at the time he went to prison, "violence" by the ANC had consisted of bombing some remote electricity substations, nobody killed.

I do agree that terrorism including killings were carried out by ANC later on, in fact mostly one or two decades after he was locked up, but he wasn't in charge while he was in prison.

Also want to respond to someone else's "one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter" remark. I think that's too easy, and the implication that whether someone is a terrorist depends on whether you agree with their cause is just wrong. Terrorism has a specific definition, it is about the tactics used in pursuit of a cause. It doesn't cease to be terrorism if you approve of the cause.

[harticus]

“A freedom fighter learns the hard way that it is the oppressor who defines the nature of the struggle, and the oppressed is often left no recourse but to use methods that mirror those of the oppressor. At a certain point, one can only fight fire with fire.”

Nelson Mandela

[SpikeyChristmasTree]

Whenever I start thinking that there are more good people than tossers about threads like this pop up.

The kids I teach analysed Mandela's reasons for turning to violence after Sharpeville. The intention was to destroy property. In his own words "we felt that without sabotage there would be no way open to the African people to succeed in their struggle against apartheid. All lawful means of expressing opposition had been closed by law and we were placed in a position in which we had either to accept a permanent state of inferiority, or defy the government. We chose to defy the government."

I suppose some of you think the uprising in the Warsaw ghetto was wrong, too?

[CaterpillarCara]

I am quite informed on his antics before his imprisonment. I don't think they have ever been hidden?

It is possible for someone to have huge stature and heroic qualities without being purer than pure. He said himself, I am not a saint, unless a saint is a sinner who keeps on trying.

I think he is a hero. Coming out of 27 years imprisonment, not even being allowed to bury your own son (most of our prisoners would get that) and to forgive and seek peace is very humbling and important.

A hero is a person admired for their courage, outstanding achievements, or noble qualities. It is not a person who never erred.

[harticus]

Gandhi himself never ruled out violence absolutely and unreservedly. He conceded the necessity of arms in certain situations. He said, "Where choice is set between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence... I prefer to use arms in defense of honour rather than remain the vile witness of dishonour ..."

Nelson Mandela

[Feminine]

I think that NM was wholly right in his thinking, of course he was.

He didn't always go about it in the right way though.

That is why I don't like all this talk of a saintly man.

He was a regular human, who was right that life had to change in SA.

[complexnumber]

I certainly wouldn't have NM as one anyway. Feminine

I'd love to know who you would put above NM in terms of honour, integrity and personal sacrifice.

[harticus]

It is quite astonishing that anyone can refer to a nation's struggle for freedom and democracy as "antics".

For fuck's sake.

[jammiedonut]

I'm not sure any intelligent people would regard him as a 'cosy grandfather'. DH grew up a white man in segregated South Africa. He has spent the last 24 hours in tears because of the death of this great man. The positive effect he has had on race relations and on so many lives is undeniable, why can't you understand that?

[Dawndonnaagain]

Do some of you REALLY understand what apartheid was about? Do you know about the murder of Ruth First by the SA Security Services? Do you know about Steve Biko? Do you know about the Pass Laws? Sharpville? The pencil test in the hair ? FFS - some of you are a bloody disgrace. IRA my bloody foot !! And as for the use of the word 'famous' to describe him! You ought to be bloody ashamed of yourselves
Stands firmly with Bourdic

It's people like the many on here complaining that allow things like apartheid to happen.

[Feminine]

complex

Then perhaps on thinking about it...

I'd choose my Grandmother. A woman taken from her home during WW2, placed in a camp -then suffering terribly for the rest of her nervous, worried ruined life!

[CaterpillarCara]

My family were only classified white by fraud - they "passed" as white somehow and once they had the paperwork were OK. Both my grandmother and great-uncle got shoved off the street and into the gutter when walking down the road here in London though.