AIBU to not understand luxerys these days and poverty.

[milton2591]

what do you class as luxury's ?
what do you class as living under the breadline?

ok so just worked out my outlay ( this is without my car as its pretty non existent at the minute )

roughly get 1500-1600 a month

rent ad council tax - 750
gas and electric is roughly averaged out across the year at 90
I spend 240 a month on food ( 60 a week )
32 pound of phones. internet etc
other bills 110.

which leaves 215-315 a month for things I choose to sped on if that makes sense

That minimum income calculator is sounding like a bit of a joke from the figures people are coming out with.

OddBoots - im not so sure. I think it's about being able to praticipate in society, or something.

It looks like it's the Social and cultural activities bit that goes a bit wild, the rest looks fairly sensible.

The calculator says we need £36k as a family of two adults and two children.

I'd say that was probably accurate for us for a 'minimum' standard (but still nowhere near poverty). Our income is about £20k more than that. It's that extra which covers holidays, kids activities, extras.

Luxury is having more than one coat, more than a few changes of clothes, more than a couple of pairs of shoes, smoking, having a paid for TV package, socialising in a place that isn't free, drinking and smoking, eating ready meals, taking holidays, affording Christmas and birthdays.

I feel lucky that although my life is basic I can afford all of the above luxuries.

Nowadays I would not class a basic laptop and having the internet as luxuries. Both are fairly essential for a lot of aspects day to day living, for jobs, for children's homework and simply for functioning with the way society is nowadays.

Poverty is dire housing, little or no food and heat.

Luxuries would therefore be pretty much everything else. Hobbies, holidays, nice food or treats, alcohol, tobacco, technology/broadband etc.

Essentials - adequate housing, basic furniture (eg a bed per each individual, a cooker, seating, etc).
Nutritional needs of each individual met.
Heating and hot water .Power for lighting etc.
Able to pay bills such as council tax without going into debt.
Transport to work.
Dental care, medicines.
Hygeine needs met - toothpaste, soap, shampoo etc.
Adequate clothing.
Access to the internet is becoming essential, so basic broadband and some sort of computer.
These things are essentials, but they can also become luxuries .eg, heating is an essential, but we don't need to wear a t shirt in the middle of winter, but we should be warm enough when wearing winter clothes.
Everyone should be able to afford a warm winter coat, but it doesn't have to be an expensive designer coat. Similarily, we do need clothes, but we don't need a wardrobe full or 50 pairs of shoes with matching handbags. So really it's a matter of degree.
To me, things like holidays are luxuries, though they should be attainable .

I think that access to instant good advice and knowledge of legal rights is an absolute necessity when in dire housing with little or no food or heating.

I have been without it myself pre-technology and it made the situation far worse.

An internet connection is also essential in order to get ahead in the job market. Not sure if broadband is a luxury or whether dial-up still exists and is cheaper. Doubt it, as it is using obsolete technology.

I was thinking about this today as I spent £20 on a pair of trainers for dd. I didn't have to think where the money was going to come from, its not a heat vs food issue etc. I am pretty frugal though - always searching out the best value for money. But I've noticed a lot that its do much easier to save money on things if you have money to start off with. Eg interest in a bank account, bulk buying, buying in advance when seeing a good offer...

I guess a luxury is anything above basic survival. Heat, food and at least one good person in your life. I'd prob say a home is essential but what defines a home? If I had nothing, a bed in a shared room in a hostel would be a relief. To think of moving from my comfortable family house into one now isn't a fun idea though.

I think you kind of adjust your expectations. I'm on benefits entirely (although I do get disability benefits, so slightly more than just the basic) and I think I have a fairly good standard of life. I have internet etc, I do some fun things, I have gadgets and I can feed the kids and myself fairly well, DD1 does Rainbows and a drama group.

But, I don't even have a passport or driving licence (I have a disabled bus pass though), I get very few new clothes, I never go to the hairdressers, I live in a smallish terraced house with no garden etc, I have zero savings, the slightest problem has me using payday loans, All my furniture is second hand (the vast majority was free from freecycle/friends and family), I need new bras but I have to wait till February to afford them, etc. but I can honestly, honestly say I don't miss those things at all. I think maybe I've just kind of got used to it and I actually feel quite well off sometimes. Most of my friends have the same situation, and if someone is much higher than minimum wage we see them as rich, which is why some of mumsnet is a bit mind boggling.

I think the biggest thing is that, if one of my benefits was late, or my washing machine breaks, or I had to suddenly visit an ill relative, I would be buggered.

I think sometimes I am in poverty. But I have a car- I have to to work. I don't have heat. Which many have mentioned as basic. It's not to me. We wear more jumpers. Go to the library for an hour to warm up, we play touch inside with the DC to warm up- they think it's fun. I would dearly wish ,as another poster suggested 'giving up petrol money' for the gas bill but I can't because we would be without food. I couldn't give up the petrol for food either- it would have to be less food, but a job.

Many times I have thought if I didn't have a mortgage I'd think sod it and jack the job in, after car costs I would be no worse off getting rid off the car and being on benefits. But I do have a mortgage..a house that's my own. IMO food and shelter are essential- heat isn't, not without health problems anyway.

IMO I'm not in poverty, I have food and shelter, I have hot water for bathes even if we can't turn the heating on we are clean well fed and happy. I'm luckier than some certainly.

luxuries:takeaways, eating out, any protein source thaat is more than about £3 per kilo, alcohol, sweets or junk snacks (me) new books, clothes other than charity shop/value/to reduce heating bills using the car for nything other than the school run/supermarket (too far to walk) heating when it is just me in the flat subscription tv, printer cartridges. smart phones. new furniture. all new toys for christmas and brithday

we do have a tv (portable) which will need to be replaced with the cheapest available when it finally dies. a computer (desktop, cheaper to buy, and mend) a 5 y old mobile phone, pay as you go, which is dying slowly a cooker rheld together with bolts, a microwave, a landline a money pit car

mum pays for dd's music lessons in school. I pay for sports clubb after school for both children.

Going to the hairdressers every 6/8 weeks = luxury
Take-aways = Luxury
Going out for coffee and a cake = luxury
Bottle of wine, beer etc = luxury
Going to pop concerts = luxury.
Sky TV= luxury
Cigarettes= luxury
Holidays = luxuries
Pouncy mobile phone = luxury
Car if not essential due to work, school or location = luxury
Kids afterschool activities = luxury
Smoking = luxury

Not luxuries
Car if needed
Dentist
TV license
Heat
Food
Shelter
Medicine
Treats for kids
Having some savings for emergencies

A haircut every six weeks might be considered a luxury but if you are on benefits and have to go for an interview the interviewer will expect you to look presentable.

Society seems to want it both ways!!

Internet is not a luxury now whereas TV is I think. It's funny how quickly it's changed- 5 yrs ago it was reasonably common not to have Internet at home. Now I don't think I know anyone who doesn't. Sure, kids can go to the library to do their Internet based homework ( in theory) but that might cost money to get to, might not be open every day, all computers might be in use etc. kids without Internet at home will be at an educational disadvantage IMO.

Yes, people can run a car and still be really, really poor. Having that car is often what keeps them from being destitute. Many really poor people need the cart to get to their horrible, lowpaying jobs.

I was surprised at the minimum income figures as well.
I think it is a little bit aspirational in that its based on survey opinions of how people should live. Not what is the lowest they could live on if you see what I mean.

I was surprised enough to download the actual list of items and services the figure was based on because i am a massive geek, the one that literally prescribes e.g:

an adult man should own two pairs of trousers and at ASDA they cost such-and-such a price and last such-and-such a period which averaged over 1 year is 0.24p per week etc.. etc.. (that's not what it actually says just an example)

The methodology is very interesting.

Agree with everyone who said the definition of luxury changes over time. As recently as the 1950's a middle class woman owned an average of three dresses (one for best) and one necklace. Anything more would have been considered ostentatious

As far as my own experience goes; i grew up (in retrospect) quite poor.
I think its fair to say, my Mum probably felt the same way about having to buy me shoes as I would feel now if my boiler suddenly exploded.
She had me in cloth nappies to save money and when both me and my sister were toilet trained, she sewed them into a bath towel which we used for years and years. I had forgotten all about this until I had DS and she offered to unpick the stitches so i could reuse the nappies again. I declined .

Here are some things I remember considering luxuries in my childhood:

1. Getting a bus. We lived three miles from town and walked in to do the shopping. The bus was for the return journey with the bags only.

1. New clothes. Other than shoes- no way. Don't even ask.

1. Getting a cup of tea or coffee from a cafe. I thought you would have to be very rich to consider this.

1. Tea bags. There was a whole period where my Dad was drinking horrible weak tea made by pouring water through loose leaves and not leaving it to steep so that the leaves could be reused. I once embarrassed myself by making the tea this way for a guest. I just thought this was how tea was made.

1. Brand name foods- especially prepared ones.

Conversely here are some things I now consider entirely normal which would have been unthinkable back then:

1. Driving to the supermarket and driving back

1. Toddler sized mini cheeses (So convenient but I still feel a bit weird about it because I know its an extremely expensive way to buy cheese pound for pound)

1. Family days out. We do this every week now- The petting zoo, The Falkirk wheel, Drives into the countryside. Love it. Never happened in my childhood.

1. A glass of wine in the evening. I was brought up hearing how people who drink and smoke are stealing food from their children's mouths. My parents had nothing for themselves

I've said this before, and have noted others have also mentioned this, but having a laptop or PC and internet is not necessarily a luxury - for all the reasons already mentioned, but also, for some of us, it's an absolute necessity for doing our job. If I didn't have a laptop, I wouldn't have a job right now and we'd be even worse off than we already are .... in fact, it would push us into poverty as I don't know how we'd eat.

We also run an old banger which god knows how we'll ever replace when it eventually dies. It's now at the stage where things are constantly going wrong - yet without it DP would never see his older kids as they live a far distance away, public transport would take twice as long and cost even more. I hate pouring money into it to keep it on the road but what other choice do we have when DP's ex moved and then refused to help at all with the 100 miles + distance she created ? So, in a situation like that, a car surely can't be classed as a luxury. All other trips are thought about very carefully indeed, and made very infrequently.

I was surprised at the cost of some of the things included in that list, don't spend anything like that on food,clothing or social activities.
We do earn slightly more now than the minimum but only in the last year or so but would have never considered myself really poor.

I earn enough to live on but no where near the 'average' salary. I'm now on SMP getting the princely sum of £136.00 per week and as the main wage earner this is a killer. Trying to keep the house running with 2 adults, 2 teens and a baby on SMP especially when my DD has needed new school shoes for 2 weeks now as the sole fell off her current ones. She's had to wait for payday (today yay) for me to get her some, so I presume that would be classed as poverty, not being able to buy something you need when you need it. No wonder so many mums don't get to take all their maternity leave, it's just not financially viable :(

I agree it's relational to the time. My parents in their late sixties consider Internet at first a luxury. Now they see it as a necessity for their age as so much has moved online. They bank, all utilities, bought car tyres, research handymen, and would consider themselves very much below the line if they had no access. Or even just library access.

It's a bit double standards tho as apparently apple is luxury but non branded is necessity.

They would also freak to think wine was luxury. It was when they were my age. Now they think it's normal.

It concerns me far more as to WHO decides the boundaries than what's maybe in them.