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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think that a bog standard community school should not attend a church service in school hours

48 replies

ReallyTired · 23/11/2013 18:01

If a community school has a carol service then I feel it should be after school. DD's school has children whose parents have a wide range of beliefs and I feel that the school should not hoist christianity on athetists, muslim, hindus, buddhist or jedi knights.

A community school should present bible stories as "christians believe" rather than "we believe". I feel its important for children to understand that there lots of different relgions/ philosophies and to respect other people's beliefs. I feel that a school should lead by example in this.

What makes me furious is that new head has scrapped all the fun christmas plays because they take up too much lesson time yet she is taking the children to church. The new head is a toxic woman who has upset a lot of parents, children and teachers. I feel that she should put her beliefs into practice before indocinating others.

I am a practicing christian and I can take my child to church. Frankly I don't want nominal christian hyprocite teaching my daughter religion. I would rather pick the person who gives my daughter religious instruction on a sunday morning.

OP posts:
Sirzy · 23/11/2013 18:04

They are being taken to a carol service? I assume permission is being given by parents for the children to be taken? I really can't see a problem personally.

There again I would have no problem with my son being taken to a service (whether just a sing song type like a carol service is or a proper service) of any religion.

Nanny0gg · 23/11/2013 18:08

My school is a foundation school and we hold our school Carol service in the local church every year.

It's a beautiful historic building at the heart of our village and it's a fabulous occasion for the children and their parents. (and it's in school time as it would be if it took place in the school hall)

CocacolaMum · 23/11/2013 18:08

My dc both went to the same community school and both attended carols and christingle services in school time at our local church.

I am not in the least bit religious but think its marvellous that they do it.

stargirl1701 · 23/11/2013 18:16

You do understand that all state schools must organise religious worship. Legally. Must.

Withdraw your child from the worship.

OTheHugeManatee · 23/11/2013 18:23

I get the impression here that your beef is primarily with the head teacher rather than the use of school hours for a carol service.

somewhereinessex · 23/11/2013 18:26

Ours have a christingle service in the evening after school. It's for years 3-6 and is seen as "compulsory" although you could opt out I'm sure. The year 3's do a nativity tableau and the year 6's process round the church with candles. It's quite moving as it's their last Christmas at the school and some of the mums get a bit weepy as they do at the last sports day, the last school play etc etc.....

frogspoon · 23/11/2013 18:57

YANBU

The only reason a non church school should be taking their pupils to church is to learn about Christianity, and not to take part in a compulsory religious service (although this could be optional)

It is very important that pupils learn about all other religions and cultures, possibly even watching the service to see how people of that faith pray, but they should not be forced to take part in their services.

Parents would not be happy if e.g. Christian pupils were taken to a Mosque and forced to kneel down and pray to Allah, so why should e.g. Muslim pupils be forced to sing songs praising Jesus in a Church?

"Collective worship" is very outdated in today's multicultural society. In a non-religious school, where pupils are of all faiths and none, an assembly should be non religious, and could simply carry a moral message e.g. being kind and respecting others, that would encompass the values of all the major religions.

brettgirl2 · 23/11/2013 18:59

Yabu no one is being forced into anything. Parents have the right to withdraw children. ..

SantanaLopez · 23/11/2013 19:02

A carol service? Oh come on. YABU.

Nanny0gg · 23/11/2013 19:03

so why should e.g. Muslim pupils be forced to sing songs praising Jesus in a Church?

They're not. All parents can ask for their children to be removed from religious assemblies.

Therefore our Hindu, Muslim, Jehovah Witness etc children only attended if their parents wanted them to.

TheIggorcist · 23/11/2013 19:19

There are no Jedi Knights at your dd's school. There just aren't.

Beastofburden · 23/11/2013 19:28

It's a carol service, somehow they are neutral rather than religious, especially if you are not a believer. I'd feel very differently about anything actually religious, as it were.

mrspremise · 23/11/2013 19:47

The school I work in has a collective act of worship and a separate 'Muslim Assembly', that the interested parents have got off their arses instead of moaning and organised. We also have children who have been withdrawn because of parental preference. They do reading and/or colouring depending on their age. Totally Biscuit time, I think...

NoArmaniNoPunani · 23/11/2013 19:49

What is christingle?

superlambanana · 23/11/2013 19:52

Should a community school therefore not do anything Christmassy during school time then, OP?

(Genuine question)

dementedma · 23/11/2013 19:53

Jesus is a respected prophet in Islam. Why wouldn't they praise Him?
We had an Easter service once where we re-enacted Jesus washing the disciples feet.
The pupil playing Jesus was a Muslim.

NearTheWindmill · 23/11/2013 20:00

The UK is still principally a Christian country and all schools have an obligation to include religious education in the curriculum. I don't understand why you have a problem with a carol service; would you have a problem with a celebration of Diwali during school hours?

frogspoon · 23/11/2013 20:04

Jesus is a respected prophet in Islam. Why wouldn't they praise Him?

Yes, you're right I had forgotten that. What about a Jewish child then?

We had an Easter service once where we re-enacted Jesus washing the disciples feet.
The pupil playing Jesus was a Muslim.

I'm sure most parents of any faith or none wouldn't object to their child learning about another religion's beliefs, and acting out a play to show their knowledge. It's a bit different learning about the beliefs of others, compared to having to carry them out yourself.

I'm sure parents can withdraw, but if a third of pupils withdrew on religious grounds, the withdrawn children would most likely spend the afternoon in school dong something fairly uneducational e.g. watching a DVD rather than learning something, as there would not be enough pupils or staff to actually teach anything.

Original poster
ReallyTired · 23/11/2013 20:04

Prehaps my problem is that the school has decided to stop all christmas plays because the practices take up too much lesson time yet they have introduce these carol services. Many parents preferred the christmas plays which weren't necessarily the navity.

OP posts:
frogspoon · 23/11/2013 20:10

I don't understand why you have a problem with a carol service; would you have a problem with a celebration of Diwali during school hours?

The problem is that it is a religious service involving prayer.

The same principle would apply for Divali
e.g. Whilst I would agree that children could be taken to the temple to see what Hindus do at Divali, I think it would be inappropriate for them to actually recite the Hindu prayers.

Fugacity · 23/11/2013 20:15

I work I'm a school that is approximately one-third practising Muslim, one-third practising Sikh, and one third "white" (mostly Christian but some A/A).

I haven't come across a single student who does not celebrate Christmas in their families, even the hijab wearing Muslim girls. 100%

I think it is fitting to observe the real meaning of Christmas. I have not come across any any student who has opted out. They love Christmas!

YABU.

Sirzy · 23/11/2013 20:16

But (although I don't necessarily agree with the decision) learning a few carols that most children already probably know and which don't need to be learnt off by heart because they can have hymn sheets is going to take much less time than rehearsing for a christmas play would.

Also takes much less staff time in terms of preparing for it I would imagine.

stargirl1701 · 23/11/2013 20:19

Embrace change, OP. Don't be one of those parents.

phantomnamechanger · 23/11/2013 20:24

a christingle is an orange with a red ribbon round it, a candle in the top and cocktail sticks bearing dried fruits/sweets - it represents Christ as the light of the world and is often used during advent/chrsitmas eve

candle = jesus is light of world
orange = the world
red ribbon = blood of Christ shed for the world
cocktail sticks = fruits of creation/gods good gifts

Justtrying · 23/11/2013 20:26

op at the risk of being flamed the uk is (was) at the last census a Christian country. We go out of our way to welcome people of all faiths and beliefs. If you object to your child attending a carol service then withdraw them from the service. Having attended a CofE primary myself, all be it over 25 years go we were taught tolerance and acceptance of all faiths, attending a synagogue and a mosque. Religious eduction or what ever it's PC term today is taught in all schools, even my dd 2 years old has just been learning about Diwali in nursery which is non church based.