to think that the Catholic Church is deliberately taking the piss with this questionnaire?

[Slatecross]

Accessible to your average left footer?

It is clearly aimed at the clergy. I think it is a terribly sad document, in that it shows how desperately out of touch the church is with the congregation.

I stopped going to church because I couldn't stand the hypocrisy in the Catholic church any longer. The divorced people pretending they weren't divorced, the gay altar boys / deacons, everyone disregarding the rules on contraception. I didn't object to any of these lifestyles, I objected to the pretence that they didn't exist. Also the contradictions over the sacrament of reconciliation.

When the congregation is living a lie the religion is a lie.

Slatecross - how could I possibly argue with your Dad? I knew Nichols years ago and it was interesting that the (then) adults' view of him varied widely. Some people liked him, a lot found him to be politically on the make and in a hurry to ascend the hierarchy. Over the years I've come across a number of people who've worked with him and haven't found anyone to give him a good reference. So yes, I'm with your Dad.

I just read the first question and got to the family values associated with Gaudium et Spes, read a guidance document, realised they were only talking about men the whole way through and even if they think this extends to human kind I concluded this had nothing to do with me and went back to watching Netflix.

I'm not a Catholic, but isn't the Pope questioning lots of things about eth faith? Is this survey part of the Pope's doing or is it somehing else, and who is Vin Nichols?

Vincent Nicholls is the head of the Catholic Church in England I think.

Thanks. Is this questionnaire anything to do with the Pope's seeming reevaluation of Catholic fundamentals or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

&

Yes, the Pope has launched a worldwide survey - a "modern families" survey I've seen it called, that is true. So it's quite possible that the Vatican bureaucrats are more to blame for the "out of touchness" of the questionnaire as presumably they want the same questions asked everywhere - though I doubt it is more user friendly in any other language and it is unclear, to me at least, how they really want the laity's voice to be expressed.

Vin Nichols is the Archbishop of Westminster - the head of the Roman Catholic church for England and Wales. I'm probably guilty of having taken an unfair swipe at him over the survey though a sensible man might have tried to join the dots for his congregation a bit more.

Claig, despite my best efforts, fuck knows.

No idea on that one I'm afraid!

This survey is aimed more at the clergy, as AnneEyhtMeyer said. I don't think it is intended to get the views of the laity, which is why it contains detailed complex religious knowledge.

Maybe there wil be another questionnaire for the laity or maybe the views of the laity are not deemed as important as the views of the clergy.

I'm not a Catholic, but at the end of the day, the strength of the Catholic Church is that it is a rock and doesn't change with the wind or with fashion and if it starts changing based on focus groups then it will be weakened and will lose respect.

I am a catechist for First Communion and I was baffled. I have a BA in English too and an A level in Latin. Some of the phrasing was beyond ridiculous. "Cohabition in experimento " - is that "sex before marriage" they are referring to?

I felt a bit sad too. They are obviously trying really hard to fathom out what is going on in the parish and how to help people stay in the Faith but so so offputting.

When you looked closer they were asking some quite serious questions too.

I'm going to be unpopular here but I think a lot of people in the congregation do make a decision to stop at two children and it is pressure from society (job, housing, standard of living) that makes that decision for them rather than what they might in a previous generation have actually wanted. I think the Church has a point to make that we are told we are selfish/foolish to want more children when actually it is less selfish to have them. I know plenty of people with smart houses and good jobs, sitting in a pew every Sunday, who aren't open to the possibility of children being a gift rather than something you make a financial decision to have or not. People are jealous of their time and resources.
Sometimes maybe the church needs to remind us that we cannot always control everything. This is a completely non PC attitude btw. But it is what I think.

Ive done loads of things against Catholic teaching had IVF etc - if anything the experience of infertility makes me more aware of Natural Law and what a minefield it is once you start treating babies as commodities that you can choose or not choose. I don't think there is an ANSWER - just I don't think we should ridicule the Church for standing up for other values, than the ones most of us live by.

The Chinese policy of one child was absolutely abhorrent even when it made sense from a population point of view. It goes against our instincts to be told we cannot procreate.

I have answered it and submitted it.

For q7 I said that we shouldn't be promoting more children we should be looking after the ones that are alive rather concerning ourselves about the unfertilised.

There is another one asking about the promotion of the faithful non Catholics
I said it was a bit tricky due to the lack of women in the church the misogyny, homophobia, Paedophilia, and having an ex nazi as a recent pope

If you use wiki it reminds you of the basics

Swanhilda the point I was making is that regardless of the church's teaching on pretty much anything, the way in which this questionnaire is worded makes it laterally inaccessible to the majority of the congregation.

Slatecross I agree on the inaccessibility. It is at best patronising, and at worst offensive. I think I would cry if someone asked me to fill that in. I nearly cried when I was filling in the Diocesan School form for secondary school entry (I think it is also for primary and nursery schools) where you had to write exactly which mass you attended and why you didn't go to mass if you didn't go regularily and why your husband didn't go regularily. I felt like screaming and hitting people with that one - this is my faith you are trying to put into tick boxes you xxxxxxers. I think surveys like this can bring up a lot of negative feelings.

' I don't think we should ridicule the Church for standing up for other values, than the ones most of us live by.'

Exactly. I respect the Catholic Church precisely because it is the only real opposition to a secular society that devalues human life and a green philosophy that believes each human's "carbon footprint" harms God's planet. The Church values human life and will not sit by idly while our elderly die of dehydration in our hospitals or Chinese sytle birth control policies are one day introduced by an elite who foster the lie that humans are destroying the planet.

This is an article I read years ago and is pretty hardline by an element within the Catholic Church, and although none of us live exactly by it, I am with the Church in their opposition to the green anti-human agenda of the elite.

"Call for two-child limit on families from the Government's leading green adviser"

....

Read more: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1133316/Call-child-limit-families-Governments-leading-green-adviser.html#ixzz2klaspH6w
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"The row came as the Roman Catholic Church, which views contraception as ‘intrinsically evil’, compared environmentalism to Marxism.

A booklet by the London-based Catholic Truth Society, a charity under the patronage of Peter Smith, the Archbishop of Cardiff, said environmental lobby tended to exaggerate the threat to vindicate its calls for radical Government measures.

The book, Global Warming: How Should We Respond?, says: ‘Just as Marxism advocated communism as the only solution to the world’s ills, so Greens warn us of major catastrophe if we do not adopt their calls for radical change.’

It says the ideology of the Green movement runs counter to Christian beliefs, because it sees ‘mankind as just one species among many’.

The book says that population programmes targeting the 'supposedly feckless breeding' of the poor, especially in developing countries, were the result of racist and unfounded prejudices.

'Environmental campaigns which demand that the natural world should be treated with greater respect imply that this is the only issue that matters, ignoring the plight of humanity or any spiritual values,' it said.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1133316/Call-child-limit-families-Governments-leading-green-adviser.html

Some really foul racist remarks against Catholics and the Church. I doubt you'd all say it if it were any other religion.

If you can't be bothered to even google Vincent Nichols don't bother posting.

I'm too angry to say anything else. Feel free to criticise any religion or way of living but at least be polite about it.

I am pretty anti the Catholic Church, but I actually found this questionnaire interesting and understood nearly all of it.

It is very hard to read. That's a shame because I do believe this Pope is trying to get 'his people' to understand 'the people' .. If you see what I mean.

I don't think making this questionare accessible to the majority and getting back answers showing a tolerance of some unCatholic practice or anger at sex abuse etc is a danger to the Church. But not listening is.

If this was more accessible it would be possible for the Catholic Church to find ways of connecting more in order to make the teachings more relevant to people today.

It looks a bit like internal sabotage. Some high up who wants to protect the status quo saying "The Pope says we've got to ask the people these questions ... Lets make it so hard he only gets three questionnaires back and we can say it was a rubbish idea the people aren't ready for.. "

Exactly Grennie, you can be against a religion, disagree with them fundamentally or just plain old hate every aspect of their teachings and comment freely as we're lucky enough to live in a country where we can all express ourselves pretty freely.

However we should all voice it politely as you did. I wouldn't dream of making such nasty comments like some other posters it's so hurtful and just very ignorant.

Actually just had a thought. all it needs is a very clever person to do a translation for each question in plain English and circulate so people can participate. The answers don't need to be written in a version of Medieval English.

OhMerGerd I understand what you're saying. It has been explained and talked about during Mass but I agree there should be a more accessible and less wordy version available as there are numerous ways of asking the same questions using the applicable terminology without being so lengthy.