To have told my leturer that it is wrong that they're grooming us to say good things about university when OFSTED come??

[MrsRBrand]

I was in a professional studies lecture this morning (Primary school teaching degree).

The lesson was allocated to learning about assessment methods.

The lights were dimmed and a power point delivered for the duration of the lesson. Saying that the teaching course are due to get an ofsted visit imminently and in the event of ofsted wanting to talk to us (students) we are encouraged to only say positive things. And will be invited to a prior meeting to be told what to say.

When I said that I think it is wrong that we are being groomed to say positive things the lecturer said 'if you were working for a school you would be loyal to that school'. I said that as an employee of the school, of course I would but I am a paying customer at this university and I want to be free to tell the truth'

(As well as being an interesting course, uni has lost a lot of our work from the first year, they put us on placements in schools where some mentors are trained to mentor us and some are not, creating disparity between peoples placement grades.)

I said that 'you wouldn't prep children to behave well and then imply that they wont do as well in their grades if they do not'.

AIBU to have said something, (no-one else did) but lots came up to me afterwards to say they agreed with what I said?

Also agree with Haggarty who is, unfortunately, simply speaking the truth.

HaggertyF
"Boils my piss when trainees do this."

How very dare they have an opinion.

How very dare trainees not respond in a positive manner to the emotional blackmail of poor providers.

DrCoconut, yes. Ofsted inspects ITT providers, but not other parts of a university. However, other degrees are usually inspected and validated by their relevant professional body (not a joyous experience for those who have been through a revalidation process).

However, at my previous university we were told it was a disciplinary offence to influence student scores on NSS or during student evaluation of teaching, which was mandatory for all staff once per year.

No, YANBU. I'm a teacher and know what Ofsted is like having experienced it more than once, but you have to earn support from all stakeholders. Loyalty is earned too. As you say, you're a paying customer and not an employee! What they've done is pretty disgraceful and incredibly risky-do they think you'll all agree and do as they ask?! Can I ask which uni it is..?

Or at least, which region it's in..?

Beware the staff survey for OFSTED when you're teaching. In the last school I worked in, the staff felt that the behaviour could be better and that was a major lynchpin in getting the school downgraded from Good to getting a notice to improve, as the school was then slated for teacher opinion not meeting the SEF. The staff attitude wasn't seen in the positive light of striving to improve, it was seen negatively. The school's academy plans and funding plans were in tatters, resulting in staff restructuring and redundacies.

OFSTED is a complex, political game far removed from the real world, and played to an agenda. You need to learn to play it. Principles and foolish honesty won't get you very far, and the consquences can be very unpleasant.

Haggerty is spot on here. OfSTED is high stakes stuff, not just for lecturers but for all the admin/technical/support staff. I just can't comprehend why anyone would think it is ok to risk all of their livelihoods so they can vent their petty gripes. It does not sound very professional, collegiate or mature.

OfSTED expect students to be briefed, it's part of the guidance. Luckily they can spot a trouble maker with a bee in their bonnet blaming everyone else for their lack of understanding or own short comings but I really can't understand why an adult would even consider risking other families security like this. YABVU

Paying customer - vomit. That's an attitude probkem right there. Is this how you expect the children in your school to respond to you?

Education is not a commodity that can be bought. If you insist on an economic analogy, it's that of a gym not a shop. You can pay whatever fees you like but unless you put the hard yards in and treat your expert trainer with the respect they deserve for the many more hard yards they've put in over their careers, then you're not going to get anything out of it.

"treat your expert trainer with the respect they deserve for the many more hard yards they've put in over their careers,"

I would hope that my "expert trainer" respected me for more than being a cash cow.

" I really can't understand why an adult would even consider risking other families security like this."

more emotional blackmail from logon

May I just say I am disturbed by your emotive use of the word grooming here....as if you feel this mild coercion of you as an adult is in someway comparable to an adult sex offender grooming a vulnerable child for sexual exploitation or abuse. They are really not comparable.

University professor here, and veteran of many student satisfaction surveys. While I would never tell students how to respond to our internal and external surveys or QAA assessments ( no OFSTED thank goodness), I do talk through with students how they think about satisfaction and quality.

Because ...

All these surveys are generally quite badly designed (I've done enough work on research tools such as questionnaires to know) and tend to encourage students' negative responses. They rarely ask students about their own contributions and efforts.

They position university students as passive recipients of "teaching" rather active participants in their own "learning".

And think about how often we tend to complain at the individual things that go wrong, and rarely reflect on an oval positive and productive experience, such as learning new stuff in a degree? While I certainly wouldn't have done what your lecturer did, i also think to complain to OFSTED if you didn't raise the issues at the time with the university is unproductive, and smacks of the same kind of instrumentalist and bad faith you accuse your university of.

I really hate hate hate the attitude that education is a consumer service. You are not a customer, you are a student. You're there to learn. What have your learnt? Reflect on that, and then work with your university to improve that experience.

Margaret, thanks. I work for a HEI within a college and we get inspected by whatever the newly formed body is, I can't remember at this stage. We also do the dreaded validations and EE visits. Plus the NSS. We had some serious staffing issues last year and the students pasted us.

DH lectures in ITT and his view is that, if asked by a student what they should say to Ofsted, it would be to bear in mind the bigger picture of the whole course, and not to vent about relatively minor gripes, which are almost inevitable across the duration of the course.

Ofsted in ITT is undeniably political - the Gov't are looking to totally alter provision, and can therefore make it almost impossible to gain "outstanding" (or whatever the equivalent grade is). For instance, if a school mentor grades a student as 'only' satisfactory, that is deemed to be the University's fault, regardless of the teacher mentor's calibre, bias or mood. Or whether they even managed to attend the mentor training in the first place. It's very hard to find schools that will take students these days, so it's not unusual for students to meet reluctant staff. Difficult.

Completely agree with those stating that education is not a commodity to be bought! This attitude of "paying customer" is just one more step along the way to schools being treated like and becoming businesses.

"I really hate hate hate the attitude that education is a consumer service. You are not a customer, you are a student."

So you make no effort to "sell" courses to students?
you are not in competition with other unis for students and money?

whether uni lecturers like it or not the students are now consumers, its time to move with the times.

Well there is the element of competition between courses yes. But I was referring to this notion of education itself being a commodity (and thus teacher training courses fall under this too by their very nature of training people who will then be teachers). There are way too many factors in play for this education equals business argument to ever work and to try and simplify down to such basic terms makes people appear woefully uninformed.

Boney lecturers themselves do not 'sell' their courses, that's the job of marketing and the overall management, lecturers are paid a set wage, usually determined nationally, and so don't get any extra benefit (cost or otherwise) from it costing you £9000 instead of being free. Except fielding lots of student complaints about things they are often not personally responsible for (e.g. contact hours, admin losing work).

The one genuine feedback mechanism we have in our university is the anonymous forms at the end of each term, in which we/our courses are graded by the students, on 60/70 different aspects of our teaching. They are, with the odd course exception, pretty high which makes me think we are doing something right.

Mumsyblouse

"lecturers themselves do not 'sell' their courses"
I know that they don't sell the courses but they are responsible for the provision of that course.

"The one genuine feedback mechanism we have in our university is the anonymous forms at the end of each term"

Which are only genuine of the students trust you enough to fill them in.

The strange thing is that I don't disagree with what has been posted about ofsted, but I am disgusted at the attitude of some of the lecturers on here.
"I really can't understand why an adult would even consider risking other families security like this."
"what about your peers"
"it boils my piss" (when trainees complain).

linked with

"treat your expert trainer with the respect they deserve for the many more hard yards they've put in over their careers,"

lecturers don't deserve automatic respect anymore than anyone else and like all professions there are some really shit lectures, unis/providers out there.

Frankly the STFU attitude "boils my piss"

OP, I think I was at the same institution last year doing my PGCE as they knew Ofsted was due (and have now arrived). We were "prepared" in a much subtler, more understanding way (I was an English PGCE student not primary). The "preparation" mainly involved being given a bit more paperwork and a 15 minute socialist rant about the evils of gove and Ofsted that we nearly all agreed with before carrying on with our scheduled lecture.

I would play the Ofsted game and if you have any genuine concerns bring them up after Ofsted have gone. Losing work is bad, but the inspectors will see that for themselves. Preparing for ofsted isn't great but I would discuss that with the university after the inspectors have gone as they didn't set the rules to the game.

lecturers don't deserve automatic respect anymore than anyone else and like all professions there are some really shit lectures, unis/providers out there

Actually donning my flameproof dress here I think that lecturers do deserve respect from their students. We know more about what students want to learn, we can guide them, we can open up their minds to all sorts of new possibilities. And we are driven to do this, we want to do this, we want to challenge our students and see then learn.

I'm sorry, I know this is a highly unpopular view, but actually my students should respect my learning and my knowledge. In terms of their position as students, they are not my equals although in other ways they might be some of my students are amazingly talented and knowledgeable in things I am not. But in terms of what I teach, an undergraduate should be respectful of me.

But I'm old-fashioned: I believe that I learn best when I try to learn with a certain humility.

UptheChimney

The respect should be reciprocal, in the case of some of the posts on this thread it isn't.

Our end of term online anonymous surveys have no way of connecting back to the students. Trust doesn't come into it- students like to let you know both good and bad things about the course, and we take the negative comments very seriously so if there is a problem with a course, it is usually changed for the next year. Our admin is also ranked as outstanding anonymously. The NSS is also anonymous. Students can also feedback complaints through SSL reps. There are plenty of ways to make your feelings known in most institutions that will not disadvantage you in any way or identify you as the complainant (although in my experience most students are happy to identify themselves if they are unhappy with things).

So- I would never say to the students STFU- I would say be honest and use the internal complaints and feedback mechanisms of the institutions. If you complain to OFSTED or in the NSS you are, sadly due to political mechanisms, devaluing your own degree and institution.

Mumsy

From the sound of it your uni is much better than the ones that my friends and I went to.

"OFSTED is a complex, political game far removed from the real world, and played to an agenda. You need to learn to play it. Principles and foolish honesty won't get you very far, and the consequences can be very unpleasant."

Bloody hell, what a depressing view.

I don't think joining in the game is the answer.

OP, YANBU.