To have told my leturer that it is wrong that they're grooming us to say good things about university when OFSTED come??

[MrsRBrand]

I was in a professional studies lecture this morning (Primary school teaching degree).

The lesson was allocated to learning about assessment methods.

The lights were dimmed and a power point delivered for the duration of the lesson. Saying that the teaching course are due to get an ofsted visit imminently and in the event of ofsted wanting to talk to us (students) we are encouraged to only say positive things. And will be invited to a prior meeting to be told what to say.

When I said that I think it is wrong that we are being groomed to say positive things the lecturer said 'if you were working for a school you would be loyal to that school'. I said that as an employee of the school, of course I would but I am a paying customer at this university and I want to be free to tell the truth'

(As well as being an interesting course, uni has lost a lot of our work from the first year, they put us on placements in schools where some mentors are trained to mentor us and some are not, creating disparity between peoples placement grades.)

I said that 'you wouldn't prep children to behave well and then imply that they wont do as well in their grades if they do not'.

AIBU to have said something, (no-one else did) but lots came up to me afterwards to say they agreed with what I said?

Many students don't realise the pressure teachers and lecturers are under. Some make whole careers out of so called "quality jobs", pedantically criticising others generally doing good jobs in under resources environments. Indeed, most of the overpaid new jobs are in this nebulous area. We've all had our whinges about teachers and institutions but the bold thing to do is to take it up with tutors if we really want quality to improve. And using the term grooming is being disingenuous.

Honestly, there isn't a conspiracy here.... just a terrified, stressed tutor who is under enormous pressure as her job depends on the outcomes of the inspection. OP - this will be you soon.

MrsRBrand they would bu if OFSTED itself was fit for purpose, and capable of offering an accurate judgement free from the political bias of the day. Unfortunately, they are not. 'Recomendations' from OFSTED can have big implications, especially as Gove wants to move away from University based training.

Gosh, I didn't even know OFSTED was involved with HE institutions!

OP YANBU if and only if you put your complaints in writing at the time, followed through with student reps, and / or approached tutors.

Also when you say the university lost your work etc, was it your tutors who were responsible? It couldn't, for example, be a registry office or student counter, or a placements office in the case of the problems there, that is responsible? Make sure you're aiming at the right target!

It won't matter what you say, if Ofsted don't find the evidence to back it up. Evidence is triangulated in the inspection, they listen to what people say and look for evidence to back it up through paperwork, reports and observations.

A Dept or college will not be closed down or have funding reduced based on one persons opinion. They will if they get a Grade 4 and then don't improve with the help of a HMI.

Whilst it is wrong to 'tell' you what to say, I would always ensure anyone involved inan inspection knows how it will work and I talk to them about some of the things they may be asked. What they then tell an inspector is up to them.

If you become a teacher and understand the role OFSTED have played in ruining the education of many children in this country, you will regret ever doing this.
you will understand exactly why your lecturers are doing this as you prepare the children in your own classes in the same way.
complain by all means, but not to OFSTED.

OFSTED just simply is not the right conduit for your complaints. You should have a student rep or a student-staff liaison committee where you can air your grievances. If that is not satisfactory, approach the Head of Department; but it's quite important that it's not just you complaining but a substantial number of the cohort (at least 1/3). If the outcome isn't satisfactory, find out what your university's complaint procedure is and take it further.

HaggertyF

So you think students should not be able to raise concerns, if asked?

And surely, as adults, they don't need coaching to be told how they must answer, they should be free to say what they actually think?

I doubt one person, or even a few, raising concerns positive would lead to the whole department being shut down, especially if the majority were positive- unless there were other problems within that department.

And if there are problems within the department, which is training future teachers, I would rather it was known and changes recommended, not swept under the carpet (although, I doubt positive comments from students would not make up for other failings).

However, I do agree that the OP is perhaps making a mountain out of a molehill. She is free to make her objections to the lecture known, and also to make her feelings known to OFSTED, but I agree that she should also raise any problems with the relevant people within the institution.

We have a similar issue with the NSS, the national student survey- however, I would never put up powerpoint slides and I never tell students what to say, I encourage them to take part and also inform them that student scores are used to rank universities-which is true. So, effectively, scoring your university badly is a bad idea as you are devaluing your own degree.

That's why these surveys/assessments are never neutral, they are used for political ends. However, I draw the line at telling students what to say and am surprised they would do anything as obvious and stupid as putting up a powerpoint. I still wouldn't shoot yourself in the foot by complaining too loudly though- pick one bad thing if you need to mention anything negative, don't just score everything negatively (as this is also an issue- a pissed off student may score everything really badly but it's unlikely that everything is truly terrible and this then distorts the marks).

And, I agree with everyone who says that you should be feeding back your complaints within the university itself, to the programme leader/director and through the student-staff liaison committee. There are well-worn mechanisms for dealing with problems and you may even get some things changed rather than just moaning to OFSTED who will use a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

Most ITT is shit. You learn how to become a teacher in school.

When you actually become a teacher your whole working life will revolve around OFSTED. Preparing for it, doing well, making sure your results don't dip so they don't come back too soon, preparing for it etc. This shouldn't be what teaching is like but it is, because one year of bad results can signal the end of a school. Get used to it, this is your future.

Let me try to explain, to those if you who know fuck all about it. A department doesn't need to fail its Ofsted to shut down. It just needs to drop its rankings by ONE point to lose its quota and its viability to be threatened. So an outstanding provider is just as vulnerable as any other. If it is inspected, and moves from a 1 to a 2 for any aspect if its training, the whole thing collapses.

No one outside the system would believe how fucked up it is, that's the problem. Lay people swallow the lie that Ofsted works with institutions to improve them.

ALL Ofsted does is prepare public opinion to believe Gove's fucking lies.

I still don't see why students shouldn't be honest about their views regarding the university. Being aggressive about lay people knowing fuck all isn't going to make me think that students should pretend everything in hunky dory. Then again, I'm fortunate enough that my university always responded to constructive criticism in a positive way.

oh dear

you are going to feel terrible about this a few years down the line
keep it in house
complain to the uni but not ofsted

A Dept or college will not be closed down or have funding reduced based on one persons opinion. They will if they get a Grade 4 and then don't improve with the help of a HMI.

A grade 4?! No ITT provider with less than outstanding gets guaranteed quota. The stakes are way higher than you think.

Then again, I'm fortunate enough that my university always responded to constructive criticism in a positive way.

And you might be a student at my university. Of COURSE we respond positively to student criticism. Because student satisfaction and employability are teo of the metrics our quota depends on.

Open your eyes.

wow HaggertyF, a tad rude!

Admittedly, a lay person. Still allowed an opinion though.

The system you describe sounds like madness. However, I still think that students should be free to give their honest opinion if asked. They should not be told what to say, or what not to say- let alone have a whole lecture dedicated to it. It's crass.

Of course OP should be honest about the good and bad if asked by OFSTED. One persons negative opinion, if the majority are positive, shouldn't have that much of an impact.

And surely scores/rankings fluctuate every so often anyway? Not everything can always stay exactly the same, and if it does, then this starts to look a bit unreliable. If a whole department is shut because of 1 point difference, then departments should in theory be constantly be closing (and presumably more started up to replace those who've closed?).

Universities have their own complaints procedure which will be a lot more effective than an external for dealing with complaints. If a student genuinely feels they are being unfairly treated, that is what the SU etc. is for. The SU will normally have the best interests of the student at heart, and try and seak a good outcome for the student. OFSTED have their own agenda, and won't help the student at all.

I'm not saying students should lie if asked a direct question, but I do think if you have complaints about anything that has happened whilst at university, OFSTED will not solve them for you.

Realistically, the losing work is a minor issue, and probably the fault of the admin deparment, not your lecturers directly. The placements issue is more of a problem, but if you actually want this solved (not just to whine about it) then there are far more effective routes to follow. If you have some sort of personal tutor, it should be raised with them as a first port of call. I think if you haven't made any effort to highlight your issues at the time, it's not fair to raise them with OFSTED.

What did the lecturer say to suggest that your course outcome was dependent on cooperation?

Haggerty I am doing a vocational course. There was an issue last year with my friend that the uni handed badly and the regulatory body has been called in to address this. I'd be disappointed if I felt the uni closed ranks and advised us against being honest if the regulatory body asked for feedback.

yanbu, Ofsted know that this goes on in institutions.

Sounds like abit of bad management which potentially could affect your grades so if you're asked be honest.

bad form on the uni.

Why are OFSTED inspecting a university? Is it because its teacher training?

YANBU Haggerty, I have also worked in Education many years and agree with all you've said.

Ofsted are an absolute waste of time and money!