to think once the children are there it is too late to do anything about it...

[Oakmaiden]

This is not a thread about a thread as such, but it was inspired by another thread.

Sometimes I have heard people say "if she didn't want to spend time with her children, she shouldn't have had them". And I always think - but maybe she thought she was going to love spending time with her children, but it turns out once they have arrived that actually they just don't feel that way. That despite loving the children as people, the sheer work and drudgery is so unlike what was expected, that actually looking after the children is not a joy but simply a chore.

What should a person in this position do? Would it be so very wrong for them to "subcontract" the joyless parts to someone else? I don't have an answer, but I wonder what people actually think when they say the fated "well, she shouldn't have had children then"...

I think everyone on here is totally missing my point. I have no issue with people/couples going out socialising without their kids. Its a normal thing to do and very healthy. Why are you all missing the point i am trying to make about subcontracting your kids out for very long periods of time just for your own pleasure. Forget housework etc. Im talking about children.

Brice.

I had no idea what I was letting myself in for when I had a child. And of course I love DD to pieces. But would I do it again? Nope.

A lot of it IS drudgery. A childless friend once told me she didn't want kids cos it just seemed like "constant wiping". And that about sums it up for the first few years...

Dancing but I bet now you have your worshipped child you would not want it any other way.

I wouldn't say worshipped... A lot of it is drudgery and boring. And I don't begrudge any woman taking time out for herself, to do something she enjoys whether it's having a manicure, going to see a film, meeting friends for coffee... So that she can feel like her old self again.

Do people who judge others for 'subcontracting' out the care of their children actually really know how those children in that family feel and what the parents contact with the children is really like? Whilst I think it's a question of degree, don't think you can tell. Which is why threads like this make me just shrug.
There are plenty of full time mums and dads (who may be struggling etc as it is hard) who's kids can probably tell their parents don't always want to be with them. Stop bloody judging people.

I dont begrudge any woman doing any of those things either. Look at my previous posts.

I know for a fact that my DC have/had much more entertaining and interesting days with our CM than they would have had with me. And they have a loving relationship with lots of cuddles, kisses etc with her too. I have to work FT, and there are times I think I might have missed out on some bits, but I don't think I would have functioned that well as a SAHM.

Now if I was a SAHM with lots of spare money AND childcare, I probably would be having a ball.

But saying "you should have thought of that before you had kids" makes me only slightly less murderous than the patronising twits who ask people on Relationships threads "why did you have children with/get PG to that arsehole" - like that is ever going to help anyone ever!!! Pet MN peeve!

It's quite funny and seems to be topical.

I have to admit that when a woman goes on to have a second and even third child.with a useless twat I think "why????"

I think it's terrible to say it just about the mother as if only the mother has the responsibility for the child. If the Dad is doing more childcare that's fine.

But when you have children where they never really see either of their parents I think there might be a point there

There is a child like this in my family. Her parents are very driven by money and work long hours in pressurized jobs simply because they want to be rich. They could have an extremely comfortable lifestyle by anybody's standards on one of their salaries.

The daughter is woken up, dressed and then dropped off elsewhere for breakfast. She is taken home and fed and put to bed by hired help. She has never really seen her parents in the week since her mothers mat leave ended (early).

At the weekends her parents both play sports so she's offloaded then too. They socialize on weekend nights and the only time she seems to see them is if they decide to go shopping and drag her round the shops.

In the holidays she has two weeks away with them in the summer and the rest of the time she stays with relatives.

If someone was to get a dog and only give it a couple of hours every weekend you'd say it was neglected. So I do wonder. They love her but they demonstrate that by giving her the best of everything. Her upbringing is starting to show through as she measures worth in monetary terms, not time or thought.

I too work full time and the only people who have ever commented on my decision to outsource childcare seem to be justifying their own choices to themselves rather than put my choice down

Mylovelyboy, by your logic SAHPs should home educate rather than dumping their children on the school system? After all, if they can't be fulfilled and happy spending every waking minute with their children, they should either get the fuck back to the workplace or admit their utter failure as parents, yes? Or does that magically change when the child turns 5?

For what it's worth, I had a friend who was chuffed to bits when she was pregnant with her first at the thought of never having to go back to work again, she was full of the anticipatory joy of being a full-time SAHP. She decided about 6 months in to return to work part-time for her own fulfilment and mental health. It's the best thing for her and for her kids,by a long chalk. She feels she's a better mother, as well as being a happier person.

cailin you might think it, but would you actually type it out in response to an OP who is desperate and looking for help and support and a way out in a thread on Relationships? Big difference yes?

To me its about doing what you want to and what makes your family happy.
I think problems arise when people aren't prepared to see another pov or think their way has to be the best, or judging people who don't fit the norm, or your own perceived utopia.

I have a nanny/housekeeper lady rolled into one. She's wonderful. Predominantly a housekeeper. But her nannying elements are solely to allow me to socialise as and when I like. For example, she's asleep in her room right now and I've just bowled in from a fabulous night with the girls. He's asleep before I leave, and by the time he wakes up, she'll have gone. He's actually none the wiser. But, by mylovelyboy's reckoning, she's performing my parental duties (being in the house while DS sleeps) whilst I piss off free as a bird, quick as I can, from the child I can't be arsed with.

What an absolute load of bollocks.

I barely work either, and she also does 95% of all the housework because I frankly don't want too. How my son is managing to put one foot in front of the other with such a lazy self centred mother is frankly beyond me.

Mylovelyboy and I must live in different worlds. Or centuries. Or whatever.

In my world a substantial number of parents of both sexes work. And both parents take responsiblity for organising the childcare about the work situation of both parents. Often they stagger work so one parent is home in the morning to do the school run and the other parent picks up after school. Or else grandparents (of either sex) do the pick-up. Or else a childminder does. I know several stay-at-home dads and several families (like dh and me) who shared the early childcare.

In my world parents of both sexes socialise in equal degrees. They tend to organise their social life so that both partners get the same amount of time out and both parents get equal amounts of time with the children because the assumption is that this is something that is equally important to both sexes.

And dads miss their children just as much when they go to work. Because in my world dads are parents too.

I'm not entirely sure I worship my children though. Love them, yes, very deeply, but worship is for a deity- I'm not sure either of mine can aspire that far.

My MW told me that one of the reasons she thought I didn't get PND was because my expectations of motherhood were much more realistic than most. Despite that, I still found it hard. The sleep deprivation was like nothing I've ever experienced. For the first 9 months I slept for no more than 45 minutes at any one time. I remember clearly - about 3 weeks after birth - thinking I'd made the most dreadful mistake of my life. I think a lot of new parents - particularly mothers, who bear the brunt of it - experience that feeling.

Fortunately for me, after a brief period of self-pity, I accepted that since I couldn't put them back I had to get on with it and I haven't looked back since. Don't get me wrong, the first couple of years were physically very demanding and although there were a million special moments I think of those early years as hard slog. I would have gone stark staring mad without my job as a distraction and a break.

However, I feel that the difficulties are, in a way, what creates the bond between parent and child. When you've been up all night with a screaming or ill child and the sun rises the following morning on two exhausted individuals, there's a sense of "we've weathered this together". I often think that in most families, where mum is still by far the main carer, that's why very young children have a much stronger relationship with their mother than with their father.

If I hadn't "snapped out of it" I dread to think how I'd have felt. Probably suicidal. The guilt of not enjoying your children, on top of not enjoying them, plus the social condemnation of admitting it, must be crushing for those who experience it.

I don't think there is any way to predict how a person will feel about parenting until we actually have a child.

I was a massive party animal before dd, and I know that a lot of people assumed I wouldn't cope. In fact I had planned to go back to work six weeks after the birth, and had childcare in place ready, but then found I couldn't face going back and leaving her.

My closest friend adores children, has always been like the pied piper at weddings, just one of those people kids naturally gravitate to (they used to give me a wide berth). She had her ds five months after I had dd and has had the most horrendous two years.

She had saved for years to be a sahm when she could, but had terrible PND, her ds isn't a sleeper, has multiple severe allergies, and now goes to nursery 3 daays a week jst to give her a break (which people have made her feel guilty about, and that doesn't help her PND one bit) :(

I think we all just do the best we can in the circumstances.

Oak

I get a version of this. if I say "the kids are such hard work/annoying/tiring etc." I get "why did you have 6 then? you should have figured it out after 2 or 3..."

thanks, that's helpful! so people with 2 or 3 allowed to moan and get sympathy but I can't? why?
it's more resonable to think that 6 are harder work yet people expect that it is easier?!
or that I should just shut up and bear it?

those snide and critisising/patronising remarks make me really angry.

you are allowed to moan about your husband or your job or your car - the answer is not "why did you do it/buy it then"
and it shouldn't be when talking about kids either.

especially if you end up with kids whose personality clash with yours or once that are ill or your health suffered because of pg/childbirth and so on.

rant not over, but have to do school run

i

Yanbu but I do think it's odd that if you have had one child and find you are unhappy a lot of them time to then go on to have more children.

Mylovelyboy from your comments on previous threads not only are you racists and ignorant you are also sexist and ignorant

You can read every parenting book and article ever written and think you are absolutely prepared for being a parent. I've even known people who worked in childcare feel that they knew what they were getting themselves in for after being around kids all day for years. But until you have your own child you will never know.

Before DC1 I thought I was prepared for the sleepless nights. I've had insomnia since I was eight and was a party animal in my teens. I thought I knew what exhaustion was already. Nope. It was the biggest shock of my life. I was so tired at one stage I was hallucinating and fell asleep in the bath . I felt like a failure because I just couldn't bond with DS because it seemed like all he did was scream despite my best efforts to help soothe him. You'll never understand the frustration of trying EVERYTHING with a baby and still have them scream blue murder at you. I was just weeping all of the time and at one very low point said I didn't want him anymore . I was diagnosed with PND and anxiety.

I never knew I'd feel that way. I knew there'd be sleepless nights, shitty nappies and crying but I wasn't prepared for the "I've fed, changed and am rocking you in my arms so why are you still screaming at me?!" that happened every day. I thought that strong love and bond was immediate, nobody tells you about the people who don't feel it straight away. It took me some time to get that emotion and to bond with him. I guess I had to get to know him first, as strange as that sounds.

I had a lot of help in those first few months from family, I don't know how I would have got through otherwise. I've had two more DC since then and luckily had a different experience with them so didn't need the help so much. But there are times, with three toddlers, where I want to run away and hide for a while... I think that's pretty normal and natural. I don't begrudge parents who want to have help tbh. If I had the money I think I'd quite fancy a nanny too .

There is a difference between parents who want some time away and the type that just treat their kids as if they're some annoying creatures they want to get away from them as much as possible. Those parents do exist, the "my social life is more important than my kids" parents. My mum was one so I know.

I love my children, but I hate "being a mum", or at least the "endless" bits. For example, poo-catching isn't that bad, and is even quite diverting, but getting down on the floor to wipe up yet another spill of porridge is just ego-trampling. Then there's listening to badly-constructed, pointless stories, about people I don't know, or schoolwork DS has got the wrong idea about. I speak a few languages and have done the usual teaching English to forriners, and must honestly say that five year old syntax can be just as bad as that of a hopeless student, and perhsps worse, since an adult at least knows what s/he is trying to say!

God, that feels better. Thanks for the rant, everyone!