to think once the children are there it is too late to do anything about it...

[Oakmaiden]

This is not a thread about a thread as such, but it was inspired by another thread.

Sometimes I have heard people say "if she didn't want to spend time with her children, she shouldn't have had them". And I always think - but maybe she thought she was going to love spending time with her children, but it turns out once they have arrived that actually they just don't feel that way. That despite loving the children as people, the sheer work and drudgery is so unlike what was expected, that actually looking after the children is not a joy but simply a chore.

What should a person in this position do? Would it be so very wrong for them to "subcontract" the joyless parts to someone else? I don't have an answer, but I wonder what people actually think when they say the fated "well, she shouldn't have had children then"...

YANBU. It's not usually the 'fun' bits that you don't enjoy, it's the endless boring drudgery that goes with having children - cooking, cleaning up, picking off dried in banana from clothes, changing nappies, washing clothes, cleaning up sick, school runs, taking to boring bloody baby music groups watching other 1yos bashing a tamborine around, etc etc.

Nothing wrong at all with taking a break from this, whether by going to work or employing a nanny. It doesn't mean you don't love your children, it just means you don't love the role of housekeeper/cleaner that can go with it.

It's also none of anyone else's business what you do.

mylovelyboy what an extraordinary and unnecessary post

I had this comment from a friend of mine. 'Why would you have children if you aren't going to raise them yourself....?' along with a host of other snippy comments since.

We both have a single child, four months apart. I went back to work when DD was 8 weeks, for a number of reasons, including financial. She made staying at home a 'condition' of agreeing to have a child at all, and has insisted on it, even when they couldn't afford to pay the rent.

I firmly and resolutely believe that I am a better parent because I did not stay at home. I am not an especially patient person and have no especial empathy with small children. I am convinced that I did my DD a real favour in granting her a carefully selected third carer in our fabulous CM. This is a woman who really does love the preschool age group - genuinely adores children age 0-3. She's experienced, unshakeable, endlessly interested and patient and playful. I would not have been.

I could not - I know without a doubt - could not have given my DD the things that this woman has. I'm not cut out for it. I love my DD to death, and I cried like a mad thing every day for a week when I first went back to work, but it was, in our case, the right thing to do.

My proof is an almost-four year old that's bubbling, confident, secure and happy. She started pre-school with no wobbles at all. She runs back to me at the end of the day. I spend evenings and weekends with her, and I share the skills I have gladly, because I'm not worn down with 14 hours a day of it. My time with her is precious and meaningful for both of us.

And I've protected my career, my job in a tough market, and my earning power, which I don't consider a small part of being a parent. I can provide clothes/food/housing/heating etc without worrying about how to pay for it. I'm lucky in that I've never had to worry about her feet growing. I might never be able to take her to disney land, but she won't God-willing, lack for anything basic, ever.

It was a choice I made. I stand by it. I think I did the right thing - but I get judged.

It's when the nanny takes on the role of the parent where it comes a problem.

^ that's true, but I don't see a problem for a nanny to take on the role of cleaner/cook/housekeeper while the parent gets to do the fun stuff with the child/ren and so can actually enjoy being with them. It's when you have all the other crap to do that takes up so much time that's the problem.

I thought I had a pretty good idea of what it would be like to have children - but nothing prepares you for the shock of a first baby. The responsibility is terrifying, and the practicalities are relentless.

I don't regret having my beautiful boys, and I was lucky not to have had PND (have suffered with depression before so have some idea of how horrible this might be). However, being a parent is hard in some ways.

Nobody should judge anybody else. For anything. Ever.

I always get a pang of unhappiness that the children pick up on their parents' dislike of being in their company.

How fucking horrible it must be to feel you are a tedious encumbrance.

Im with forty on this. Nanny taking on role of parent is very wrong. I have all the 'other crap;to take on and quite frankly so do most people. I dont thinks its an issue. As a mother you just get on with it (unless of course you are ill). All the clearing up of shit goes with being a parent. I love my ds so much I dont care about all the hard work that goes with it. I am a single parent and work full time. Im as happy as a pig in shit poo

Mylovelyboy how about the father's social life?

Harticus, my children know that I love their company. They also know that I need a break once in a while

Even if it's only while I drink my coffee in the garden!

I am a sahm so my children think it's appalling when I go in the garden to get away from them. Might be better if they spent time with a dedicated nanny or childminder. .. and I AM a childminder but still need a break from my own kids!

mylovelyboy well great for you that you love the drudgery chores that go with children so much, but so what if other people don't?

What about the fathers social life? He can have a social life just like the mother as far as i am concerned. My point is, the mother should spend more time with her kids if she is at home all day (and the kids are not at school ie too young) than the Nanny. Fathers (if they are around) are generally out at work all day. I dont object to the parents having a evening out together. Or even a day. Im talking day to day.

drudgery Its how you feel about yourself personally. I dont think of myself as a drudge.

mylovelyboy well hurrah for you! That's lovely, but the point I think is that we DON'T all feel that way and when we don't, a different balance of work, childcare etc may provide the best mix. I also see nothing wrong with parents having something of a social life minus the kids. DH and I both are teachers and in the school hols we have to continue to pay for childcare, so we use it - not all, about 40% probably, but it gives us a few days a year when we can decorate, sort out the filing, go see a solicitor about wills, go to the pictures, be a couple. AIBU is all about having opinions on other people's business so hoick your judgy pants by all means, but please don't assume that because YOU love every second of what parenting pre-schoolers means, we all should be forced to do it.

Hmm but why shoukd fathers tend to be at wirk and mothers tend to be at home. Your posts assume that childrearing is the mother's responsibility

green nothing wrong with having a break from your kids. Its when you barely see them because of your own selfishness. Thats the problem in some cases.

Yep, well, I can honestly say, and have no shame in saying, that I don't actually enjoy cooking and cleaning, so yes, to me it is drudgery. I still do it of course, but I don't really enjoy it. It does not mean I love my children a single teeny ounce less that you love yours.

Stealth its a fathers responsibility also. But as a rule the father is generally out at work during the day. Most and would say all the fathers I know are.

Its when you barely see them because of your own selfishness. Thats the problem in some cases.

What 'cases' are you talking about mylovelyboy? The OP talked about subcontracting the "joyless" parts to someone else, which I took to mean boring household chores.

Maryz if you read my posts I have made it very clear that i understand that some people are maybe to ill or have personal problems that make it difficult for them to cope with their children. I have tried to make myself clear on that . Please re-read. AGAIN i will point out ........that i am talking about capable mothers that do not go out to work that spend most of their days socialising therefore passing the childcare to a Nanny because they cant be bothered.

I was a tedious encumbrance to my mother. She'd like to play mummy to my kids now. She can fuck off.

If you find you don't like being a parent (and by that I mean relating to your kids, not doing housework) you bloody well suck it up and learn to like it. It's not something you get to opt out of without serious consequences.

I think cleaners, gardener etc are great. Really do. Im talking about Nannies. Maryz my son goes to after school clubs every night until i collect him . I am not sexist. You only have to stand outside any school gate to see that its 90% women that pick the kids up.

Society doesn't demand that I prove my worth by doing other things that I am shit at, constantly. Imagine if we lived in a culture where you showed your love for your partner by doing any dental work they needed done, and if you paid a dentist to do it people tutted and agreed that you clearly didn't love him. And shouldn't have got together with him. you also have to cut his hair and make his shoes.

I love my children but thank goodness I am able to have help with looking after them.
They are girls and I hope that they will feel able to think about their aptitudes and enjoyments when they choose what to do when they are older; maybe being surrounded by women and men who all do many different things will make it seem obvious. I hope.

One of the things that I think is useful to bear in mind about how things used to be done is that there are a lot of damaged people walking around. Children used to be something that automatically happened to married couples (which themselves were something that happened automatically out of any people who wanted to leave home) and were then automatically looked after by the woman, no matter how young, angry, resentful, disinterested, untrained, unsupported, and desperately eager to be doing any bloody thing else she was. I don't think it was an unmitigated success.

These hosts of can't be bothered mothers socialising away, I've never come across these people, I'm thinking must be mumsnet fantasy designed to drive me pea green with envy < vile person emotion>