To post this for the anti Poppy brigade?

[Jakebullet]

Just posted on Facebook by a poet friend of mine

The whistles could be heard
Along the trenches below
The young men weren't ready
But they had to go
Some held photos
Of loved ones back home
They charged together
Yet died alone
The bulkets n bombs
rang loud in their heads
Yet forward they ran
Running over the dead
A war against tyranny and for freedom they fought
A price was to be paid
Yet could never be bought
But their actions
Should be remembered
Even tho with regret
By wearing The Poppy
LEST WE FORGET

By Billy Isherwood

Love this poem......it's been in his head several days and this morning was finally written down.

All this bewilders me, it truly does.

The poppy is a symbol by which to remember the injured and fallen of ALL wars. Whether you agree with them or not, whatever your beliefs regarding conflicts, surely the wearing of a poppy is a good thing? Personally I'm disgusted by some of the views posted on here, some of you should perhaps take a minute or two out to thank your lucky stars we had people willing to make the ultimate sacrifice so that you could have the 'freedom' to hold the views you do......

Which views in particular disgust you?

And what is 'silly' about a white poppy? Is it silly to want to honour the dead whilst maintaining a pacifist position? The red poppy has undeniable political overtones which some people don't feel comfortable aligning themselves with. Nothing silly about that.

The wearing of a poppy is absolutely a good thing if you want to use that particular symbol to remember the injured & fallen.

Choosing not to wear one is also a good thing if you aren't happy with everything it's come to represent.

As you said, we should all be grateful to those who sacrificed their lives to preserve our freedoms. Quite.

it's the extension of the poppy to cover all wars that many people have a problem with. Not all wars are created equal, and not all wars were fought to protect British 'freedom'. In fact, I'd say only one in the last 100 years falls under that bracket.

And it is rather narrow-minded to think that those who were killed or wounded (that word 'fallen' - ugh) can only be remembered via a poppy. Some people don't like to broadcast their private acts of remembrance.

I wear a poppy because in the selfishness and posturing of politics and materialism of modern life young men and women are dying on battlefields and we should remember them. Not the idiots who make the wars but the military personnel who fight them.
I watched the Festival of Remembrance and saw a mum weep for her 23yr old son. Her tears were terrible grief and great pride. We would not have the rights and freedoms we have today if those rights hadn't been won for us by sacrifice.
"For our tomorrows they gave their today".

squoosh the way the wearing of a poppy seems, to some people on here, to show that you are happy to go to war, that you agree with recent invasions, that you have become some political pawn. For example, one poster said she stopped wearing a poppy when we invaded Iraq.

Another called Remembrance Sunday a 'mockery'....how insulting. Tomorrow, I shall remember my darling Dad who was in the Merchant Navy and was a German POW from the age of 16 till he was nearly 21.

When I pin my poppy on I don't give a moments thought to the politicians and the war mongerers. I wear it as a sign of respect to the thousands of dead who lost their lives through the futility of war, any war.

I had no idea there was this amount of negativity around wearing a poppy - I will always wear one to remember my great grandad who was blown to pieces in the trenches of ww1 and my grandad who suffered great mental and physical torture as a pow in ww2. It is only now that I am older that I really appreciate the bravery and sacrifice that these members of my family made and the thousands of other men and women who have fought for our country.

Fair enough it's your choice and there have been recent political conflicts I have not agreed with but the poppy stands, in my opinion, for remembrance and to commemorate bravery. How many people today would go and fight for their country like the soldiers of ww1 and 2? They did it for our freedom and I will wear my poppy every year to recognise that and to make sure my children do not forget the sacrifice they made.

We will remember them.

"They did it for our freedom"

No. They didn't.

Sorry, but they didn't. They were conscripted. They didn't have a choice. In the first world war, you could get sent to prison for refusing to join up. At the very least, you would be ostracised in your community, labelled a coward, subjected to vicious violent attacks at a time when it was more difficult to move on from the place you were born and grew up in. In the second world war you probably wouldn't get sent to prison, but you still had the social stigma of being a conscientious objector and even a traitor and not many men were brave enough to take on that stigma - it takes a lot less moral courage to go along with the crowd, even if the crowd is heading towards the abyss.

That's why I won't be wearing a poppy this year. Because I don't want to go along with that re-writing of history, that lie, that blatant propaganda, that the poppy is beginning to represent. I really regret it, I think the idea of it being a politically neutral symbol is brilliant, but it's never really been neutral. The glorious dead? How is that neutral? Glorious? Really?

Isn't the white poppy an opium poppy botanically? Never seen one for sale anywhere other than the Internet.

basil Whatever the reasons behind them joining up, the fact remains they died. And the poppy is a symbol of Remembrance of them and the thousands like them.

Well that's what we're always told ladymariner.

But it has also become a symbol of our assent to the legitimacy of war.

Like it or not, successive governments and politicians have hi-jacked it for that purpose.

Which is very sad, but there it is. That is what has happened.

I am ex-services but I don't always wear a Poppy. I always buy at least 1 Poppy. People are free to do as they choose, that's why Poppies are available....... Think about it.

indeed masirah.

I am astounded at the utter bollox some people come out with - i really am.

successive governments have sent out soldiers to do their bidding - as my nan always said " they send our men out for their [the govts] war."

I wear the poppy to remember and honour the sacrifices of all soldiers british and not, on all sides who are slain. Recently this has been in the name of greed and the reasons our men and women were sent were disgusting. I am not honouring the decision, i am not assenting to the legitimacy of war, i am saying i recognise and honour your sacrifice.

1. in response to this comment: "It seems a bit hypocritical to have marched in Stop The War marches, but then support the soldiers and families of those who chose to take part in those wars."

No, not hypocritical atall - in fact it makes perfect sense. If you want to stop a war (or all wars) then you probably feel bad for the people who had to fight them (99% of all British soldiers killed in combat in the last 500 years were conscripted) - you probably feel they shouldn't have had to go and you probably feel that you would like somehow to remember them and point out that their lives could have been spared if other means of resolving (whichever) conflict had been better explored. So wear a poppy. Tell everyone that you give a s**t about the people who were conscripted and had to do what you believe (if you go on anti-war marches), should never have been done. Poppies are about remembering people not politics or the views of Edwardian society impossible for us to get a grip on.

2. Of course there is no "anti Poppy Brigade". How ridiculous. As many have said, choose to wear it, choose not to. Go about those two minutes on remembrance Sunday in your own way. It's a free country...

3. modern conflict is every bit as barbaric and appalling as that of the first World war or any mediaeval battle.
   This thread started with a poem and I'll add a modern one - from a poet who has been to a combat zone and looked at the war in Afghanistan.

It's called "You'll get used to it".

• - - - - - - -

You'll get used to the constant smell of half cooked human pretty quickly. A week or so will do it then you'll stop being sick.

You'll get used to men shitting themselves uncontrollably and the stink of it everywhere because you've done it and may well do it again in a minute. Then you'll stop being scared.

You'll get used to helping the half dead on their way humanely and the occasional splash of someone else's hot blood on your face.

Then you'll stop feeling guilty.

You'll get used to not giving a butchers flying fuck about anything much at all and as you take the dog tags from a corpse you'll get used to taking the cigarettes aswell. And the watch maybe. And the Zippo.

You'll get used to it because it's extreme and horrific and revolting and because we we all get used to it and you will get used to it too.

In eight weeks time you'll be in a night club in Burnley.
It's loud and full of drunks and every pop or
shout or scream will spark you out and have you reaching
for a weapon you no longer have.
But don't worry, you'll get used to it.

Ladymariner I completely understand your desire to honour your Dad by wearing the red poppy. For lots of people to wear the poppy is to honour Jack Brown who died in WWI or Tom Green who died in WWII. I think it is right and proper to show respect to the memories of those who perished in these conflicts.

However choosing to not wear a poppy isn’t an insult to these men but more a stance against recent conflicts. It’s undeniable that the red poppy now has political overtones which do not chime with everyone's personal beliefs. Just because someone doesn’t wear the outward symbol doesn’t mean they respect the dead any less.

Yes, the reasoning behind sending them out is disgusting, BUT the ones who were sent chose to join up, as did the son of the weeping woman.

The ones who were conscripted had no choice, and that is the issue for me. Forcing innocent people to go and fight, is very different from choosing to go and fight.

Wearing a poppy has nothing to do with assenting to war. It has everything to do wirh acknowledging the sacrifice of those who died.
The question about the morality of war is very difficult. Today's servicemen did choose a military career accepting that death was possible. Wartime combatants were conscripted, it was ever thus. In times of great peril people fight for their lives, their loved ones and their beliefs. There is an argument that Iraq and Afghanistan were political/commercial wars and I don't think we should have been imvolved in them. WWII was a differnt matter and I honestly believe the world was saved from great evil. Many,maybe all, who are against war in any form also abhor racism. Imagine what would have happened if Hitler had won...

Seems ironic to commemorate a war which brought forth some of the most amazing poems ever written with such a mediocre effort.

They had no choice in WW1 esp.

They had to go to war and the social climate made it very difficult to be a conscious objector.

I thought the idea of 'lest we forget' was to mark the dead and say we wouldn't go there again. That their sacrifice would mean peace.

What it has become now seems to be the opposite of that.

"Wearing a poppy has nothing to do with assenting to war. It has everything to do wirh acknowledging the sacrifice of those who died."

I have a problem with this sort of language. It deliberately taps into a religious notion of sacrifice. The implication of "their sacrifice" implies that they voluntarily gave themselves up to be sacrificed (like Jesus on the cross - it's a deliberate resonance). When in fact, they were sacrificed by the rich men in whose interests they were fighting.

All a bit roman isn't it :(

MiniMonty, that poem is some powerful writing.

I think, having worked in war zones, what got me about it is that it's not all action, even on the front line. There's lots of hanging about, but it's not like you get a couple of minutes' warning before something does kick off, so it's hanging about but it's not normal life. I haven't seen anything that describes that feeling, although the poem you put above comes close.

I do stop and think about the people who have died in wars, but i don't need to wear a poppy to prove to anyone that I do.