To have said this to DS' Yr R teacher in GP surgery today?

[youarewinning]

I must point out DS is now 9yo and in year 5. He's been extremely ill and diagnosed with tonsillitis at surgery. He was lying down on me but constantly twitching his legs and twiddling his fingers and occasionally instead of frequently! making noises.

Saw his old year R teacher - she was a complete cow to him and memorably punished him for pretend stinging a girl with a 'bee puppet' they had made - the girl cried. He was 4.1yo at the time.

School did point out he had poor social communication but despite my insistence thought it was 'something he'd learn as he matured' and she seemed to preferred the 'punish it out of him' approach. as opposed to something that he needed an IEP/support for.

Anyway she retired as he left year R and he left the infants just over 2 years ago.

She said Hi to DS who didn't recognise her. I reminded him she was his teacher in year R. DS just said 'oh' and laid back down. She asked him how juniors was and he said "fine".

She then said "your much quieter than you use to be but I see you still don't sit still"

My simple reply was "I see you're still as judgemental as you use to be and continue to misunderstand children"

Ironically my DS is not quiet - he's quiet socially but is always talking to himself, his Ipad or generally making low level noises. He does sit very well now.
Most importantly thanks to the correct support he's getting is doing extremely well in school and is part way towards a diagnosis of ASD.

[Goldmandra]

I do feel guilty for not fighting harder for him. For allowing their judgements of me and him make me question myself and my own abilities - despite what my own head was screaming out to me.

You're far from alone. Given my time again I would have stood up to school staff a lot earlier and, my DD1 particularly, would have been saved considerable distress.

That's the thing. We try to work with teachers even when they are denying our children's needs, acknowledge their greater experience and qualifications and try not to come across as pushy or over-protective. In the meantime, with certain teachers, our children are going through hell.

I've been there more times than I can remember but, like you, I can now send my children to school knowing that the people around them genuinely understand and care and it's a lovely feeling.

My DD's old headmistress asked recently how she was getting on in her new school and she was most put out when I said it was brilliant and she was very happy. She muttered something about them obviously being experts and walked away without another word. I think she wanted to be validated by hearing that the problems were continuing.

[intitgrand]

youarewinning
I don't for one minute believe this 'pretend sting' was just a gentle touch with the puppet
He either poked, scratched or nipped her or frightened her by telling her she was going to get stung.You need to take off your rose tinted spectacles?

[FunnyRunner]

This thread seems to be moving beyond the original remit. So to repeat Op you were not being unreasonable based on your history with that teacher. It's a pity she never got a comment like that when she was still teaching as she might have stopped and reflected.

There are bad teachers just as there are good ones. Historically the bad ones have been very hard to get rid of.

The other side of this is that teachers are under huge pressure to deal with huge classes which often have multiple pupils with additional needs as well as pupils who are just plain naughty and spoiled. There are issues with parents who try too hard to be friends with their children and who are not prepared to do the bad cop stuff as needed. In the early years especially it can be hard for teachers to know if children are having difficulties or whether they are just brats. It takes time and teamwork to get to the bottom of this and a burnt out older teacher juggling thirty odd tiny kids will not always have the reserves for this, especially if they have old school views on discipline and the 'yoof' of today.

None of this excuses any teacher from actively persecuting a child.

[Goldmandra]

In the early years especially it can be hard for teachers to know if children are having difficulties or whether they are just brats.

I think I would rephrase this as

... it can be hard to understand whether children's behaviour is a result of additional needs or ineffective behaviour management....

I've worked in early years for a long time and have yet to come across a child who is just a brat.

However I think your summing of of a burnt out teacher not having the inner resources to look behind the behaviour is right and this is a sympton of a system that looks too hard for value for money and not enough at the long term picture.

[diagnosticnomansland]

I see the ignorant-of-neurodevelopmental-issues brigade are out in force.

[youarewinning]

intitgrand the teacher herself said he did not hurt her, just his actions made her cry and he didn't respond her to crying. that is why he was punished. I wrote it up thread as well.

The issue with the teacher us that she treated a child with probable ASD badly and then 5 years later on a 39 second snapshot him him when very I'll in a GP surgery made a comment which I took yo be judgemental - and which I responded to as such.

diagnostics quite guess I should have realised posting about my action in AIBU would end in a character assassination of my DS' SN.

Though to fair most posters have been extremely understanding - even those who thought IWBU.

[youarewinning]

Read 39 as 30! I honestly wasn't actually counting the seconds - just giving an approximate picture of the scene!

[LondonMother]

Initgrand, give it a rest! You're doing yourself no favours by your rather nasty remarks about this little boy.

[MrsLouisTheroux]

OP- the teacher herself said he did not hurt her, just his actions made her cry and he didn't respond her to crying. that is why he was punished. I wrote it up thread as well.*
So, he didn't hurt her physically but 'his actions made her cry' He absolutely deserved to be told off.

[MrsLouisTheroux]

OP- the teacher herself said he did not hurt her, just his actions made her cry and he didn't respond her to crying. that is why he was punished. I wrote it up thread as well.
So, he didn't hurt her physically but 'his actions made her cry' He absolutely deserved to be told off.

[diagnosticnomansland]

I have a real problem with this whole "Naughty children" thing...but I suppose it's useful to some because it allows them to transfer blame from themselves onto the child. Young children are rarely naughty just to be naughty...there is almost always a reason and it's up to the ADULTS not the child to use their brains and common sense to assess and strategize in the best interests of the child. "Stop being a naughty boy/girl" is as effective as a rice-paper sieve

[diagnosticnomansland]

MrsLouis - so a 4 year old (even one with no SN) pretending to sting a classmate with a paper bee is grounds for detention? I'd hate to be your child/grandchild - your expectations are ridiculously unreasonable.

[diagnosticnomansland]

And also...this teacher did not ask how he was getting on, she made a judgement of him based on the previous negative relationship which was a power play and she took that opportunity, once again after retirement, to have another dig and point out the boy's perceived "faults". Nasty, nasty, nasty. Did she hoist her bosom at the same time?

[youarewinning]

MrsLouis made to realise his actions caused upset - yes of course. A 10 minute time out of golden time 2 days later - No! His difficulties are social communication and empathy. Punishing him for not having these doesn't teach him how to behave. He was 4yo - he couldn't predict his actions would provoke that response. It's not like he hit, kicked or punched. He never did that sort of thing because he had been taught they were wrong - that's where his black and white way of seeing things is great!

But anyway people are using the whole bee thing as a red herring. It's not about that - it's about a teacher treating a child badly for a year and then commenting on said child judgementally ( as I viewed it) 5 years later. It's about my behaviour - not his.

[youarewinning]

If any of your 4yos did something with an item that's realistic for that item and caused upset to another in the process unintentionally - would you punish them? And would it be 2 days later? I'm not asking opinions on my DS. But it seems some people are BU in their expectations just because they think it adds weight to their argument that IWBU - which I've already said I probably was!

[MrsLouisTheroux]

A 10 minute time out of golden time 2 days later - No
Golden time isn't every day I take it? So, "you have made so and so cry so you will miss 10 mins of golden time on such and such a day" is perfectly reasonable for a 4 year old IMO.

[youarewinning]

And you would give the same punishment to your child for unintentionally making a child cry in pretend play?

[diagnosticnomansland]

OP - you will get no where with certain people when it comes to children and behaviour and the will character assassinate because by definition they are extremely unreasonable and inflexible. I really wouldn't waste your breath or in this case your fingers trying to defend because you'll have more chance of getting them to admit the world is flat. Your son is unique and wonderful just like every other child and YOU know that malice was not his motive for the ridiculous bee stinging incident or any of the other incidents (though I'm certain if this teacher pushed him and pushed him she would get negative behaviour out of him because she was stressing him beyond his point of coping and battling over everything just to have control. She was a shit and incredibly dense and un-resourceful teacher who caused a lot of the issues that became, well, issues. Period.)

[MrsLouisTheroux]

And you would give the same punishment to your child for unintentionally making a child cry in pretend play?
Yes

[MrsLouisTheroux]

Because whether pretend play or malicious intention the result is the same, another child was hurt ( maybe not physically but hurt/scared by these actions).

[PaperSeagull]

This is one of the most bizarre threads I've ever read. All these posters ascribing motives to the various participants, deciding (based on nothing) that the bee incident resulted in actual pain for the girl involved, etc. Do they really believe what they have written or are they just enjoying a bit of fantasy?

FWIW, I think the OP was right to stand up for her son. Since she was actually there, she is probably best placed to know the tone in which the teacher's comment was made. If it sounded like an unkind dig at a child who is not only ill but also has diagnosed additional needs, then it probably was. And the OP did the right thing, IMO. Sounds like it was no loss to the teaching profession when this charming teacher retired.

[iWantChampagneOnColaBudget]

my ds reception teacher, being new to teaching, and imo, blatantly inexperienced, did not have a grasp on boisterous children.

now, he is my pfb, but when i found that she was teaching my second dc, i tried to extend an olive branch as it was obvious that we weren't on good terms she remembered me from last time by saying ds benefited from your teaching, hoped you were dc2 teacher to which the sarky cow replied unfortunatley your wish came true
'well', i said 'if you believe that, you'll believe anything'

[diagnosticnomansland]

By your definition then, MrsLouis what should I do to punish my baby - she bit my boob today - she didn't mean to do it, but it hurt....

The problem with punishing young children harshly every time they do something that gives them new information about the world but may have a negative but unforeseen consequence is that you make them afraid to try anything new...how do they learn then?

If you apply this child-taming logic to a classroom of four year olds I doubt there would be any golden time....ever and in the end not much learning would be going on either because they'd all be too worried about angering the great big adult in the room.

[MrsLouisTheroux]

diagnostic- By your definition then, MrsLouis what should I do to punish my baby - she bit my boob today - she didn't mean to do it, but it hurt....
Very odd comparison. Your BFeeding baby is not a 4 year old at school making another child cry. Unless I have missed something and OP's child has such severe SN that he is comparable to a babe in arms. If this is the case, my apologies.