To wonder why people who appear to dislike religion enjoy Christian celebrations

[Cupcake1985]

I know that most people enjoy Christmas, Easter etc with no regard for the actual Christian basis and meaning of the celebration, but aibu to think that those people should then not get all offended by the religious aspects and sometimes be downright rude about it?? The nativity play, spreading the word of god through carol singing etc..... Dare I mention operation Christmas child?! If you enjoy Christmas then at least try to accept it is actually about the birth of Christ or at least respect that others will celebrate this fact and may try to share that with those around them with the best intentions.

Basically cheer up, be accepting, be kind.

Waves at frustrated I think you are an atheist like me, in that case, if you believe that god didn't create anything, nature did.

There is a kind of Christian who manages to believe that god created all the nice things (sunrise, musicality, talent, kindness, beauty, baby animals) and, er, nachure created all the nasty things (disability, cancer, suffering of the innocent not caused by human agency). Sorry. Either god created all of creation, or none. Looks as if we both think the answer is "none". The difference is I recognise that I am an atheist.

I can see it would be nice to let god off the hook for all the unforgivable stuff he has clearly done, and just have the fun bits. In my experience, people can only manage this bit of doublethink when they don't, personally, have a child who has died or been severely disabled. Once that happens, it becomes rather difficult to ignore.

Sorry, I think it is offensive not to face up to the consequences of what you say you believe. I understand you don't mean it that way. But you need to understand that this would be a fairly common and not unfair reaction from people in my situation.

Christmas is not a Christian festival but was a celebration of midwinter hijacked by the catholic church to make Christianity more acceptable
is is a Roman festival and may well have been celebrated before the Roman era as a celebration of the shortest day (northern hemisphere)

Hettie, that parody site is fab. 'Show Jesus how much you love him by liking us on Facebook'.

Beast - I'm not sure where I said that your reaction is not uncommon or unreasonable because I dont' think it is either of those things. I also don't believe or accept that there is a God out there that has the power to do whatever he/she/they like and supposedly loves us and then creates the terrible suffering of people through no fault of their own. I don't accept the whole God has a plan/God is in control thing: |I cannot abide the hollow, insensitive, pious platitudes that some Christians dole out to those who are grieving. Nor can I abide those that sit back and say God has a plan for me, instead of taking responsibility for their own lives and actions nor those who go around saying in basic terms that "the Devil" made them do it when they've messed up.

I've re-read my posts, and I'm not sure what it is exactly I've said that you have found offensive.

The only reason I said anything about being a Christian on this thread was because someone decided to stereotype and claim that all Christians are homophobic bigots - when in truth that is incorrect, just as the ridiculous catchphrase that I keep seeing pop up on the internet that "All Muslims aren't terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims" is, well, ridiculous.

I do accept though that we don't know everything, we can only use logic because it's the best thing we've got, in my humble opinion. To me that means that logically faith can't be a logical thing, and that people either have one or they don't and that people can't be 'logiced' into or out of it and it is fruitless for people to try either way. I find it far more productive personally to see that we're all different and complex and we all have something valuable to bring to the world and to fall out over something that can't be scientifically proved or disproved is a shame.

Perhaps Oxford is right about me (though I'd lean more towards that of my husband's take on things which is agnostic rather than my father's which is atheist) - I've just decided I prefer to have a "framework": I've not given it a lot of thought probably because I'm comfortable and have no plans to try to evangelise anyone (because that's an extremely offensive thing to try to do IMHO). I generally don't go around telling people what I do and don't believe, I see no need, I think diversity in belief/non-belief is a good thing.

I do find your posts interesting, frustrated & I think I broadly agree with everything you say.

I'm just struggling to understand exactly it is why you call yourself a Christian. Tone is everything online, I know, so in case I'm wording this badly - this is not a criticism, implied or otherwise, but a genuine puzzle to me.

I do realise that many (maybe even most) Christians in this country can see beyond the obvious mythical aspects of their religion. Even Rowan Williams, when he debated Richard Dawkins, admitted that most of the nativity (including whether Mary was a virgin) is probably myth..."it's the essence of the story that matters..." etc (paraphrased).

And I expect that you would agree that the evidence that this man Jesus ever existed at all, let alone was God in human form, is tenuous to say the least.

So what is it about this particular religion/philosophy that appeals to you at all?

Even a truly existent Jesus who more-or-less said the things attributed to him in the NT, didn't actually say anything that interesting or profound. In fact, you could argue that some of his teachings are unworkable, unrealistic & bordering on immoral. Which is why most Christians ignore them.

I can appreciate that some of what he said is inspiring & empowering - but others have said the same things in much better ways (often long before Jesus was even thought of) without pretending that they were anything other than perfectly normal human beings.

The thing with Christianity is that, in spite of all the "love your neighbour" stuff, the basic tenets, what it really stands for is, to me, disgusting. Nothing less.

We are all sinners from birth (my tiny, newborn son was a sinner) & the only way to be forgiven for these imaginary sins, is to not only believe in, but be grateful for, the horrific, bloody & painful death of a Palestinian man 2000 years ago.

If you can't get on board with this idea, then the creator of the universe is sufficiently displeased with you that (depending on what brand of Christianity is adhered to) you are either cast in to hell, annihilated instead of lifted into heaven or, at best, required to explain yourself at the pearly gates.

How can anyone, anyone at all, consider this a great moral example? It's an awful and appalling idea. And yet it's one that so many otherwise rational people buy into seemingly without question.

If this god existed, or even a close approximation, the last thing s/he would get from me is loving devotion.

Very interested in your thoughts :) (and hoping you won't be offended).

Excuse all the wonky, poorly constructed sentences. Hurrying to get to work

SuburbanRhonda and BackOnlyBriefly

I suspect I have forgotten more about the origins of Christmas than you've ever known, and I expect I am a good deal more selective about my reading matter than you are. To describe Christmas as "hijacked" from pagans is to say that "real" humans are Homo Rhodesiensis. Cultures and their practices evolve, and Christmas is no exception. Unfortunately, it is now evolving into something both pastuerised and bland.

lillibet1

My previous post is for you too.

I'm an atheist I celebrate Easter, new year and of course Xmas. I do so cos of tradition, a good reason for family time, giving presents, and generally a fun loving time.

I also celebrate Halloween n go trick or treating doesn't mean I believe in that either!

lol @ Toadinthehole

I expect I am a good deal more selective about my reading matter than you are

Yes I expect that is the problem.

frustrated I didnt mean that you had been personally offensive on purpose. You have been very nice to everyone, including me.

What I was trying to say is that Christians often wonder why people like me find Christianity offensive. Why would I object to be prayed for? surely if I dont believe, it can't hurt me? and so forth.

The idea of a single, good, all-powerful god as creator of the world is central to Christianity. There are lots of ways in which people try to square this with the many examples of suffering which are not caused by humans. I think I have heard all of them in my time.

There's the "god doesn't really exist- it's all nature and chance" argument- which I agree with, as I also think god doesn't exist. But it offends me to hear people not holding god to account for the whole of creation, but somehow managing to thank him for the nice things in life.

There's the "god suffers with us" argument, which I think is not good enough- if I were to cripple a child but give it a nice hug afterwards, I wouldn't expect to be worshipped as a result- jailed, more likely.

There's the "blessing in disguise" argument, which says that it is fine to destroy my child for someone else's edification.

There's the "we are all special" argument which tries to argue that it's not so terrible anyway- but people often would not want to pick out one of their own children for this privileged life.

There's the "do not test god" argument- but people still pray for success in grade 6 clarinet and credit god when they do well- so god has some odd priorities here.

There's the "we are not meant to understand" argument which is pretty much "I have no more answers, but as it isn't my child I am thankfully going to put yours to the back of my mind".

And I have literally lost count of the number of people who have said to me, "in your shoes I would be an atheist"- including one friend who believes in god because her daughter survived cancer, although the child in the next bed died. That is probably the most straightforward version of the "it's only real when it happens to me" argument.

In the end, not of them is acceptable when it is your child in question. So the willingness of others to drop the issue and decide not to think about it seriously any more, is upsetting. It says, to me at any rate, that my child is not worth being angry about.

So that's why some atheists can get cross. But not with you as a person- you were perfectly nice and polite.

I CBA to read all three hundred replies.

In response to the OP:

I enjoy "Christian" celebrations (time off work, lazy lunches with friends and family etc) for the same reason I observe "Christian" values (don't kill people, don't steal, don't commit adultery . . . ) BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT EXCLUSIVELY CHRISTIAN!

They are just obviously enjoyable things / common sense.

I would never say things like this to those celebrating festivals in other faiths.

Excuse me, what exactly did you say about Halloween?

backonlybriefly

Can't you give a better comeback than that, or even (perhaps) an argument?

My mother is an atheist, but adores Christmas. She always does a big tree, lots of presents, the whole bit. I pointed out the hypocrisy of this as a teenager, but she liked it.

Toad

I'm not quite sure what you've been reading, but you seem to have wildly missed the point of what most people on here are saying.

Of course modern Christmas is something that's evolved - it's a mismash of all kinds of traditions, some very ancient & some more recent, like the Victorian trappings.

I'm sure, with all your academic reading, you are aware of Saturnalia, yes? It was a week long Roman festival which concluded on Dec 25th. In the 4th century, Christianity promised new adherents that they could continue to celebrate Saturnalia, but since the festival had absolutely nothing to do with Christianity, they named the last day of it Jesus' birthday - December 25th.

The knowledge that the holiday had pagan origins is what has caused certain Christian groups through history, like the Puritans, to refuse to celebrate it. Jehovah's Witnesses still don't, for the same reason.

So, I'm sorry, but whether you personally like it or not, Christmas DOES have a pagan origin and it is entirely wrong for modern Christians to whine about those of us who don't believe celebrating it too.

Your Homo Rhodesiensis comment is ridiculous. It would be wrong to say that Homo Rhodesienis is modern man, of course - and it would be equally wrong to say that Christmas is pagan. Man has evolved, and so has Christmas.

I fear you have missed precisely what I am objecting to.

I am entirely aware of course that Christmas was not something that fell out of the sky at some point after AD 30. I am not arguing that it does not have a pagan origin, "pagan" meaning, I suppose any European religion existing prior and up to the advent of Christianity.

What I do not like is the increasingly popular misreading of history that advocates that Christmas "is" pagan, and that Christianity, like the Grinch, "stole" Christmas and veneered it. As you say, the truth is that the meaning of the festival traditionally celebrated at Christmas evolved - substantially - over time. There was no "hijack", nor was there ever an "authentic Christmas" at any point in time. I was born and raised in England, but you would quite rightly laugh if I said I was Anglo-Saxon or Brythonic, and my Homo Rhodesiensis remark was designed to make the same point.

There are a lot of very old traditions all over Europe. Some of them date back hundreds of years, some thousands. Most of them vanished after the Industrial Revolution, and most of what remained has vanished since WW2. It is nice that some of them are revived, but when it is done so along with claims that they are pagan, and therefore authentically indigenous, implies that Christianity is some nasty impost from the Middle East - a rather pointed subtext given the politics of recent years. There is pretty much no pagan heritage left in western European society now - and no I'm afraid I don't count latter-day tree-hugging and sun worship.

Heck, in recent days, I have even read claims that Guy Fawkes Night is pagan, or has pagan origins.

Well, I agree with you. And I think virtually everyone else on here would too.

I think the term "hijack" is shorthand, because we're all busy people and don't have time for longer, more involved explanations.

Heck, in recent days, I have even read claims that Guy Fawkes Night is pagan, or has pagan origins

It is nice that some of them are revived, but when it is done so along with claims that they are pagan, and therefore authentically indigenous,

It's a rather Victorian idea of a mythic mediaeval past, in which people danced around the maypole and did some morris dancing, after a light working day doing some farming in the manner of Marie Antoinette leading sheep around on ribbons. One of the effects of the industrial revolution, and later the Arts and Crafts movement, was the rise of an entirely bogus nostalgia for a sanitised vision of country living pre-technology. In reality, pre-industrial rural life was for most people nasty, brutish and short, but spurious Victorian inventions like morris dancing (almost entirely invented out of whole cloth by Cecil Sharpe et al in the late 19th century) and folk music (ditto) give the impression of a communal culture which basically didn't exist.

My local "village" council (in the suburbs of a large industrial city) organises a maypole event for children every spring: the overall effect is the sort of communal fresh air gathering of healthy young people that would have pleased the Reichskulturkammer had Britain lost the war.

Ericaequites - why do you think celebrating Christmas is a hypocritical thing for an atheist to do?

Hettie - I will get back to your questions/thoughts and no I am not offended at all - but I will say straight off the bat that (and bear in mind that I have said I hardly ever read the bible) we are NOT born sinners (I hate that word) and yes, I do struggle with the crucifixion.

Beast - wow, you really have been handed all the best platitudes haven't you? I'm very sorry. Reading between the lines it's likely I would be an atheist if I were you. I have had some pretty bad stuff happen in my life, but not the severe disablement, illness or death of a child - there but for luck go I. I hope you do tell people who dole out that crap to you to kindly go away (not what I would say actually, what I would say would be far more colourful).

So there are also pagan winter festivals. And the church decided to put its Christmas celebrations at the same time.

But what exactly do pagans expect Christians to do about that now? Are we meant to feel responsible for something others did centuries ago, or cancel our Christmas apologetically?

I've never cancelled a pagan festival or told any pagans they can't or shouldn't do something, and the "hijacking" doesn't represent my faith any more than a group of fundamentalist TV evangelists represent me and my faith today.

Christmas isn't meaningless just because one group of Christians a long time ago decided to do that. Christians these days are still celebrating the birth of Christ, and that's not invalid just because of the actions of a few church leaders in the past.

And yes we've borrowed some pagan things like trees. I rather like these connections and influences. So I'd like it if we could move on.

Coupon Bearing in mind the thread is someone moaning about non-Christians daring to celebrate without celebrating the birth of Christ and people are responding to that I think we can safely say that the Pagans and non-Pagans on here would mostly like to be allowed to celebrate in their own way without being whinged at. Especially given that Christians don't have sole rights to a winter festival - nor to the symbols used in it.

Coupon

You are entitled to view & celebrate Christmas in any way you wish.

So are non-believers. Nobody "owns" Christmas, it's a melding together of lots of different traditions - that is the point.

Have you ever, once, seen an atheist or pagan start a thread asking how dare Christians celebrate a festival that's none of their business and had nothing to do with their religion in the first place?

No. And you never will. Such a thread would be wrong, and the poster would be told so by the same people telling this Christian OP that's she's wrong.

I used to live nest door to a Muslim family who had their own Christmas every year. They said that they considered it part of their British heritage while Eid and so on was part of their Muslim heritage.

We can each take what we like from Christmas, that's the beauty of it, yes?

The word Christ-mas originated in the phrase "Christ's Mass". So I just wonder why a non-Christian would choose to call their own particular winter celebrations "Christmas"? Personally I don't think I'd choose a religious word I didn't believe in to describe a celebration.

The word Christ-mas originated in the phrase "Christ's Mass". So I just wonder why a non-Christian would choose to call their own particular winter celebrations "Christmas"? Personally I don't think I'd choose a religious word I didn't believe in to describe a celebration.

The word Easter originated in the old English word ?astre or ?ostre, referring to a pagan godess. So I just wonder why a Christian would choose to call their own particular spring celebrations "Easter"? Personally I don't think I'd choose a religious word I didn't believe in to describe a celebration.