To wonder why people who appear to dislike religion enjoy Christian celebrations

[Cupcake1985]

I know that most people enjoy Christmas, Easter etc with no regard for the actual Christian basis and meaning of the celebration, but aibu to think that those people should then not get all offended by the religious aspects and sometimes be downright rude about it?? The nativity play, spreading the word of god through carol singing etc..... Dare I mention operation Christmas child?! If you enjoy Christmas then at least try to accept it is actually about the birth of Christ or at least respect that others will celebrate this fact and may try to share that with those around them with the best intentions.

Basically cheer up, be accepting, be kind.

[Beastofburden]

And as for those people who like lattice mince pies or even worse, puff pastry....

SPLITTERS

[AnyBagsofOxfordFuckers]

BackOnlyBriefly - I think many Christians just can't be arsed with all the obvious "But surely the story of Adam & Eve promotes incest?" questions.

And I still maintain that mince pies are vile. I am sickened to my core by all these mincemeat-loving Atheist traitors.

[Beastofburden]

I think I might form a marron glacé sect. Who's in?

[VikingLady]

Can I have my own sect please? I make mincemeat filo pastry parcels. I don't like standard pastry.

I wanna sect!

[VikingLady]

I think many Christians just can't be arsed with all the obvious "But surely the story of Adam & Eve promotes incest?" questions.

I did ask my Methodist Sunday school teacher about the incest implication when I was about 9, not having read Genesis myself thoroughly. He didn't know the answer even though he was the main preacher for the church. Nor did he say so - he said "God moves in mysterious ways", I was evil for questioning things and my general attitude and lack of faith, and I must stop asking questions like that. That was the first time I was thrown out of that Sunday school.....

I assume from rereading Genesis God created more people to develop a good breeding stock: Adam and Eve were just the prototypes/beta/first ones?

[friday16]

I did ask my Methodist Sunday school teacher about the incest implication when I was about 9

Even the nutters agree: incest.

[fatlazymummy]

vikinglady only if they are like these uktv.co.uk/food/recipe/aid/533904

[HolofernesesHead]

Re. Cain and his wife, surely that's only a problem if you take the opening chapters of Genesis as literal historical record? Which is illogical as so much of it is poetry and folk stories.

Fwiw, I would answer that question by saying that the start of Genesis is about conveying by various literary means what it means to be a human in the world, to explain why the world is at is it, and to tell the distant family tree stories of the people of Israel. Adam and Eve are IMO two representative figures, not the only people alive at that time.

Can I be in the marron glacé sect and the mince pie party? Or do they contradict each other? :)

[friday16]

surely that's only a problem if you take the opening chapters of Genesis as literal historical record?

Which of course many Christians do. Young Earth Creationism and Biblical Literalism may be the stuff of fringe nutcasery in terms of the population at large, but they're not fringe nutters amongst Christians. You can be pretty certain that your local Evangelicals, if they have any time spare from railing against homosexuality and women getting educations, will spend a bit of time railing against evolution.

[HolofernesesHead]

Yes, I know that for some people, reading Genesis 1 as an alternative to evolution is an article of faith. I live in a nice little liberal Christian bubble, and from time to time I am genuinely shocked at stuff that Christians who aren't in that nice little bubble say.

[HolofernesesHead]

Although tbf, I do know lots of people who identify as evangelicals and they're a very mixed bag - some are fine with women doing whatever men do, evolution, homosexuality etc. There is definitely a conservative to liberal spectrum within evangelicalism, and also, evangelical church leaders tend to me much more conservative than those in the pews, so someone who attends a conservative church is likely to be more liberal than their churchmanship would suggest.

And evangelical women tend to be more liberal than men, although obviously that's a generalisation. Sociologically, it's acreally interesting picture; certainly not something that can be adequately described in a few words!

[octopusinastringbag]

I am not in favour of religion at all, at least not personally. It's just not for me and I have fairly negative views of it for myself.


That said, I respect it as something special for a lot of people and I support it so am happy to mark the Christian celebrations and accept the historical accounts of Jesus.

Both my children went to a church school and decided to do their first communion and believed for a while, I was happy for them that they had that and took them to church but I was not in favour of it. We went until my youngest decided that he no longer believed and didn't want to go any more so I went to church for about 20 years.

[azzbiscuit]

I hope people realize that attempting to argue with religious people using fact and reason is futile, since the definition of religion is to abandon fact and reason and embrace pure wibble.

[HolofernesesHead]

:) Azz.

[Beastofburden]

Welcome to the Marion glacé sect. Those from respectable mince pie sects are welcome here. Those who prefer puff pastry will be raisined. Like stoning, but softer.

[Beastofburden]

Marron, even. These iPads have no class.

But they have been infiltrated by the American right. Mine keeps trying to give god a capital letter....

[Beastofburden]

It's a funny thing about the range of views of evenagelicals and also the difference between what they believe in church and how they behave at work, say.

It's easy to say that this disconnect is hypocrisy, especially if we leave the example of homophobia and look at other forms of divergence such as Christians who commit straightforward banned sins such as adultery.

Actually I think it can be more about a ritual behaviour that is only valid in church. I am sure that their core beliefs remain with them all week. But the ultra conservative stuff is sort of a brand, a ritual face for Sundays. It places you in a certain group. You don't have to then do it all week.

[friday16]

Christians who commit straightforward banned sins such as adultery.

Such as, for example, the future supreme head of the CofE. Oddly, Charles's adultery (and particularly shitty adultery, too, as his and Camilla Shand's affair persisted through the entirety of both their previous marriages) doesn't appear to trouble Christians at all: I've never heard it so much as mentioned. You'd have thought that given their willingness to shun gays for adultery, no bishop would be willing to attend the coronation when it happens. Why is Justin Welby, who thinks that gays dishonour marriage in the manner of wife-beating, not telling his current boss, the Queen, that he is not willing to work with her son because of his repeated, consistent and ongoing dishonouring of marriage? Because, like all Christians, he's very selective in his adherence to the rules their imaginary friend supposedly gave him. Condemning adultery: not my thing. Equating same-sex marriage with wife-beating: come right on in.

My betting is that come Charlies' coronation, Westminster Abbey will be full to the gunwales with "Christians", whose enthusiasm for making loud statements about sexual sin has a great big blind spot when it comes to adultery. Adultery is condemned at length in the Bible, but Christians don't care; homosexuality gets barely a look in, and they froth at the mouth about it. That's because their hatred of gays isn't about religion, it's about being bigots.

[HettiePetal]

I am so uncultured, I have no idea what a Marron Glace is. Aren't they just cherries that you buy in a tub to put in a fruit cake?

I am launching the Mince Pie reformation. Back to basics. Oxford & her fellow heretics are not welcome. So there.

[Beastofburden]

Agree with Friday. People who are not gay but who might want to commit adultery to seem to keep their options rather open on this one.

Hettie, no, that's glacé cherries, you splitter. Marrons glacés are candied sweet chestnuts. Try one, you would love it

[BackOnlyBriefly]

Cain and his wife, surely that's only a problem if you take the opening chapters of Genesis as literal historical record?

That is true and Christianity has retreated to the point where many Christians now say that people evolved after god created the world and that there was no Adam or Eve.

BUT... therein lies a problem because the whole point of Jesus being born and dying (according to Christians) is to make up for Adam's actions in Eden.

So without Adam you lose the entire point of Christianity.

[HettiePetal]

So without Adam you lose the entire point of Christianity

Totally. Without Original Sin (or anything like that) the "great sacrifice" on the cross becomes completely pointless (if there even was a point to begin with).

Marrons glacés are candied sweet chestnuts Oh.

I will try them. I like chestnuts. Preferably roasted on an open fire, with Jack Frost nipping at my toes.

[octopusinastringbag]

friday the world is full of hypocrites...some of whom are Christian. The rest of us are free to be hypocrite without having to worry about the troublesome religious bit....
Charles should not, IMO, be the head of the church of England in the future but if every Christian who had committed a sin was not allowed to have a role in the church then the pews would be deserted. They have to bend the rules in order to keep going, then they can ask for forgiveness. I believe that the C of E does have a confession and penitence rite in there but it is not used very much.

[HolofernesesHead]

Re. Adam: of course it still makes sense if you take Adam as a representative figure. In fact that makes it clearer that Jesus redeems the sins of all people, represented in the figure of Adam. And yes, those sins include adultery; I don't know any Christian who'd disagree with that, however liberal they are. As for Charles, well, that's a whole other question to do with the relationship between the church and state, and whether the monarch us expected to be a spiritual leader of the church as well as supreme governor. The Queen, I think, is a true spiritual leader - but monarchs before her not so much.

[HolofernesesHead]

Octopus - we Anglicans confess our sins every time we celebrate communion. It's quite early on in the service. Personal confession, the sacrament of reconciliation is there in the Anglican tradition and is actually making a bit of a comeback as people recognise its value. The classic Anglican attitude towards personal confession is this: all may, none must, some should.