AIBU if I don’t want to go in on a house with my IL’s?

[CanucksoontobeinLondon]

We’re moving to London next year. A few days ago my in-laws came up with a proposal. They would sell a rental property they own and put the money into our new house. It wouldn’t be a gift, it would be a long-term investment for them. Well, it would be a gift of a kind, because they wouldn’t be getting any rental income from our property while we’re in it, they’d just be getting their share back if/when we sell in future.

My initial reaction was No. Frelling. Way. I’ve heard way too many horror stories over the years about family going in on real estate together, and it all ending in tears. Or worse, in court. Don’t get me wrong, my IL’s are nice people, but this could go so wrong. They’ve always been very hands-off in the past, but they’ve always been an ocean away, so they haven’t had the opportunity to be hands-on. They offered to help out with school fees after we move, and are already starting to take a proprietary interest in which schools we pick. Plus, years ago when DH and I bought our first apartment, my parents gave us a gift of money towards the deposit. And then felt they should be consulted about every swatch of paint that went into that apartment.

DH’s initial reaction was that I was turning down a good idea, and his parents are much more reasonable than my parents were (thanks, DH). However, we talked it over, and eventually both agreed that it was a bad idea. Partly because he has two siblings, and neither of them has been offered this deal as far as we know. This could lead to serious resentment by his sibilings. There were just too many variables we wouldn’t be able to control, as well, in terms of what if IL’s get into financial difficulties in future and need their share back (it’s not especially likely, but anything’s possible). DH politely turned IL’s down yesterday, and this morning MIL was on the phone in floods of tears, talking about how ungrateful we’re being. DH is now wavering. He hates to upset his mother.

I am even more against it than I was before. I don’t want to go into business with someone who’s going to burst into tears when they don’t get what they want. DH is also wavering, I suspect, because even though he’ll be making more money at the new job, given property prices in London, he’s effectively taking a paycut to move. We’re in one of the most expensive real estate markets in Canada, but it’s a drop in the ocean compared to London. My attitude is okay, we don’t get to live exactly where we want, and we don’t get as big a house as we have now, so what? At least we keep our independence. I’d only consider it if we were in dire straits, which we’re not. The whole point of the move is so the kids will be close to the extended family they have left. (My parents have both passed away, and I was an only child) What’s the point of moving if we might end up not on speaking terms with his family within a few years?

I’m concocting doomsday scenarios here, I know. AIBU, and if not, how do I convince DH to stand fast? I’m posting this on lunch and then going into meetings, then making the DCs their dinner, so I likely won’t be able to respond for quite a while, unless one of my meetings gets cancelled. But thanks in advance for your replies. I will be reading them.

If I was you, I'd also look at state schools in the area you are looking to move too (and possibly living outside of London and commuting in if your budget doesn't stretch in London to the lifestyle you want).

I would be very careful about accepting gifts where the other siblings won't be able to have the same.

Also if this causes problems down the line it will affect your relationship with your dh.

Check out this thread to see what it looks like when it all starts to go wrong with PIL and money, in your actual marriage

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/1861080-Money-and-MIL-advice-needed-sorry-it-is-quite-long

There has been a thread on Mumsnet in the last few days where a couple were having to sell their home, because the parents (I think it was the wife's parents, FWIW) were recalling the loan they had made.

I'm not saying your PIL would do this, but what if they needed the money out again at sometime in the future? What would happen, then?

I still think the pragmatic and wise way out of this is to make it all about fairness to siblings. Say how terrible you would feel being the only ones being helped. With any luck they won't have enough money to help all of them, and you never need t have any more difficult conversations.

The control freakery will die down, I suspect, once you are all seeing more of each other and your MIl feels more confident.

"Your children's school fees are being paid and you are being offered money towards a house. The siblings are as yet childless. That is likely to change. Do your pil have a very large fund? You know the joke about DH being the chosen one? Well it is not a joke. And that your fil had not even considered that when your DH mentioned it makes it worse."

Sibyl, I totally agree that PILs’ attitude towards DH as compared with towards their other kids sucks. I’m just not sure what DH and I can do about it, beyond refusing the “investment” and potentially refusing the offer to pay school fees. And at this point I’m seriously, seriously considering turning down the school fee offer too, in case it ends up coming with as much baggage as the investment offer.

Incidentally, not that it makes a difference in terms of PILs’ favouritizing DH (is favouritizing a word?), but I kind of doubt they will have other grandkids. SIL is in her early forties, and self-describes as “happily childfree”. BIL is in his late thirties, and he and his partner seem to have no desire for kids. In fact, BIL has said in the past that he’s driven slightly crazy by the fact that MIL keeps sending him news clippings about gay adoption and surrogacy. But you’re right, they could still change their minds and have kids, and that may or may not be something PILs have considered when they did their financial calculations. Probably not, if they didn’t consider the effect on their other kids of making this very generous offer to DH.

Sigh. It just gets more and more complicated and dysfunctional the more I consider it. On the bright side, they’ve never actually offered DH money that they didn’t also offer to SIL and BIL in the past. On the cloudy side, there have definitely been intangibles in terms of them prioritizing the child with kids over the ones without. And those intangibles have caused tension between DH and his siblings.

Do not do this under any circumstances.

An investment property can only work if all parties approach it as a cold hearted investment.

I'd be very uncomfortable if my dad prioritised his kids with grandchildren over those without and would tell him that I wasn't happy with his approach and wanted us all treated equally.
I can't imagine giving more money to one of my kids just because they got married and had children. In many ways they may need money less as then 2 of them are paying the bills and having children these days is a choice often a much wanted choice not a burden.
I still think crying on the phone to other people is manipulative. If she wanted to have a quiet weep when she got the email she could have done so and then got her husband to phone rather than blubbing melodramatically. if you know you will cry when you phone someone then you are choosing to cry over the phone to them and emotionally manipulate them even if you are a weepy person. She didn't have to phone, she could have asked her husband to phone.

Canuck just another small point that no-one has raised specifically. There are two problems with the crying scenario. One is the one that everyone has pointed out; that your Mil is, consciously or unconsciously, in the habit of manipulating her family. The second problem is that, as you said yourself, DH hates it. It makes him feel bad. He is vulnerable to the manipulation and it works on him, at least to a certain extent.

I would say run anyway, as there are all sorts of legal and other points which other people have pointed out above wrong with it. But if your DH can't tell his mother a firm "no" without equivocation, having to come up with lots of "reasons" why not and without feeling terrible, RUN VERY FAST INDEED.

Once you are in a situation where they have a halfway reasonable case to make for interference, they will- you've seen that over the school fees thing- and you may find your DH may have trouble defending boundaries when MiL turns on the waterworks, particularly where even some, not all outsiders think she has a right to have a "say".

And welcome to London!

The whole 'because we're offering you money we should have a say' business really grates on me. Don't get me wrong, it would be unreasonable to fritter hard earned money on say a gambling trip to Vegas, but for them to start researching school prospectuses as they offered funding is a step too far. It is for you and your dp to decide where your DC go to school, nobody else. And I would question whether this funding into a house would end with them putting their views across on your home. Before any money changes hands, they have to be aware that a gift is exactly that, not conditional bribery.

My in laws offered a similar deal. We weren't even looking to buy a property, we were their plan B because they were refused a mortgage. We turned them down. They would have been relying on the investment for their retirement. They have a daughter who, if I'm honest would accept the offer before you could say 'daddy's princess', so I don't believe we have ruined their plans.

Keep your future relationships simple by keeping these matters separate.

Well, dammit. I had a big long reply typed out, and then the cat walked over the laptop and I lost it. Anybody want a slightly used house cat? Short version:

Lisianthus, you make an excellent point. DH does indeed have difficulty saying no to MIL when she gets upset.

The good news is DH is no longer wavering. He talked with a friend of his who's a property lawyer who said not to touch it with a barge pole. And we're taking the advice of someone further up the thread who pointed out that it was amazingly tactless to reject the offer via email rather than phone. They're right, of course. DH is currently on the other computer ordering a big bunch of flowers and drafting a nice note. He's also going to call FIL again tomorrow, and emphasize that we're not rejecting them, we just don't want to cause them to have ructions with the siblings over it not being an equitable distribution.

The bad news is we are undecided over whether to accept the school fees offer. DH really wants the kids to be educated privately, for various reasons. I say if we go that route, we need to make sure there's enough room in our budget for us to afford the fees ourselves. Which means less house. Or we use our current house budget, but send the kids to state schools. DD is an all rounder who would probably be just fine. DS is a high achiever with SN, so finding the right school is a trickier mix. But plenty of parents have no option but to send their SN kids to state school, and they mostly seem to cope. The discussion rolls on, but is as yet perfectly amicable. We have plenty of time to make a decision, after all.

And thanks for the welcome! So far the projected move has just been a source of stress, but I'm sure eventually it will be a good thing. I've visited London quite a few times over the years, and it's an amazing city. Also, the winters are better than here.

Off to chase the kids into bed, proofread DH's Interflora note, and, oh yeah, have a big glass of . Think I deserve it. Thank you for your feedback, everybody. You've been awesome.

Rather than accept the school fees offer could you suggest that they start a trust for the children that will cover it?

I am sorry, I dont know how these things work but I am thinking that they pay in a certian amount that is invested and pays out a certain amount each year so you dont have to go cap in hand once a term. Also it means that once the money is there you have the final say and they cant suddenly withold the fees.

As I say, I dont know how these things work, just that my friend grew up with a fund like this from her (living) grandma. There was a trustee who would approve (or not) applications to take money from it, and it was agreed at the start that school/Uni fees would be approved on the nod. She then got full control of what was left when she was 30 (her grandma didnt trust her to not piss it up the wall, which was a good call!).

'Also, the winters are better than here.' that made my day :-)

well i think i'd go for a smaller house and have the budget for the school fees. then you're not stressed. but i probably would accept a little help for the fees. you can use the extra to pay off the mortgage quicker, and move to a nicer / larger house later on. in my view education comes before house.

I am glad that it appears to be resolved because my answer would have been a resounding NO! Your later posts about your MIL's emotional manipulation --> Even Louder NO!! Absolutely not a good idea. Shared property rarely works out well anyway but can you imagine?
What if one of your ILs were to die, and the other one decided that as they had part share in your house then they had the right to live there - could you face that?
What if their share of the house was included in their Will - would you have to sell it to pay out?

It's far too much of a minefield, and as you've already said they've got over-involved in other ways (school selection/fees) then your reservations are absolutely sound and thank goodness for the property lawyer friend agreeing!

Your DH might have problems standing up to his mother but your FIL seems to be a better bet to deal with, even if he doesn't think too well about his other children.

Hope that you manage to bypass this potential iceberg!

Well done, and welcome to MN. I think the thing about sibling fairness is a very good thing to hold onto. It affects school fees too, of course.

I would wait and see on school fees. I assumed I would send all mine to state. Then our local state school had a wobble and I sent the eldest private. Then I assumed I would send my second private, as she has SEN and surely a small private schoo, would be good, no? Wrong, in my case. Provision for SEN can be very expensive and state schools can be mandated to provide it, but not private. I was told I'd have to pay an extra salary for someone to be with her! So you may want to see how the state school SEN provision checks out.

I am sure the move will work out fine and your MIL will stop getting over excited soon and settle into a more normal pattern. Yr DHs sibs will also be pleased hat he has refused the cash!

ClaudeDebussy, the winters in England are better than here. If you've never been in Canada in the winter, you don't know how bad it can get. Just trust me, and pray you never find out for yourself! Don't be fooled by what you saw on TV with the Vancouver Olympics. Vancouver has freakishly warm winters compared with the rest of the country.

err i wasn't being sarcastic. i know what winters in canada are like!!!

i'm a south african and i'm already getting down with the winter here. honestly wasn't having a dig!

I can't imagine giving more money to one of my kids just because they got married and had children.

It depends on whether you regard school fees, say, as something you're giving to your children or something you're giving to your grandchildren. My in-laws are planning (indeed, have already started) to give money to my children towards university costs. My brother-in-law has no children, and is unlikely (single, approaching fifty) to have any, certainly of university within my in-laws' lifetime. I'm not sure that there's a reason why people can't give money to their adult grandchildren without having to concern themselves with the non-existent grandchildren of their other children.

My only sibling has the same number of children, of a similar age, to me, so it doesn't arise in "my" family. So I don't have a strong view one way or the other, and obviously my hands are dirty as I'm not the childless child, but it doesn't strike me as an open and shut issue. Should my in-laws give my brother-in-law extra Christmas presents to compensate for spending more at Christmas on my family, because they give gifts to my children?

OP you need to readthethread in Property/DIY from a MNer who did this 5 years ago and is having to sell because her parents want the money back. It's horrendous and a good warning not to fall into the same trap.

I think people just find it hilarious anyone sees a british winter as lovely and mild! especially if you're from S.A, I imagine!

We lived in Joberg and I found the winters really cold because the houses aren't insulated. We were bloody freezing sometimes. It even snowed when we were there. We were also regularly hit by electricity cuts and oil shortages.

I love my warm cozy English house.

ClaudeDebussy, sorry for jumping on you about the winter thing. I was feeling a bit irritable at the time, general IL stress. Wow, South Africa to Britain, that’s a huge move. When I feel sorry for myself about our big move, I will remind myself that at least we’re not switching hemispheres.

The only thing that travels faster than the speed of light is family gossip. SIL and BIL now know about the original offer and are, as predicted, pretty frelling irate. So, so glad we turned it down flat. SIL is directing most of her wrath towards her parents. BIL is being rather more impartial in his anger, but then, DH and BIL have a more fragile relationship than DH and SIL, so it probably shouldn’t surprise me.

On the bright side, apparently FIL was pretty shaken up by how angry/hurt his other kids were and now realizes the original plan may have been unfair. I’d say “may have been” is putting it mildly, but baby steps. At least he’s admitting to a possible error. MIL is apparently in floods of tears yet again because her kids are mad at her. As long as she’s not crying on the phone to DH and making him hideously uncomfortable, I’m not too worried. She’ll settle down eventually.

And to think, I used to consider DH’s family an oasis of normality compared with my own dysfunctional family. DH always swore they were just as dysfunctional as mine, just better at hiding it in public. I guess he was right. And I guess it’s good this is all happening before the move. At least I’ll be going to live near-ish them with my eyes open. Where is this elusive “normal” family? I begin to think it doesn’t exist.

I have three DC and my BIL and SIL have 2. Those grandparents were very concerned to keep it fair. They have left their money equally between their two boys, even though they intend it for the grandchildren, so our kids will get 1/3 each of our legacy, where their cousins will get 1/2 each. They paid for school fees for us, but gave the same amount to the other son, which he used I think to save up for his DD's future.

As it happens, the other side of the family both earn very well and have far more money and savings than we do, so in no sense do they "need" any of it. It must be said that if my DC inherited all the money from those GP, they could buy a home each, which their cousins can do anyway without any legacy.

Despite all this, I am pleased it has always been fair between the two brothers. I feel we have a better relationship as a result.

Hello Canuck! It just shows you were absolutely right to say no. I guess there is a hidden bitterness there about grandchildren and your MIL's very strong preference for everyone to produce them.

I guess when you arrive someone will have to control her from making it clear that your family trumps her other kids in social terms because of the GC. But maybe if you live a nice long way away from her, you wont have to deal with it the whole time. 100 miles is perfect- close enough that she doesnt have to stay over, but too far (in this country) for popping in.

Winters- they have changed these last few years and it has got quite cold and snowy, but when I grew up they were mild. Compared with Canada I guess the weather will feel better but the organisation will seem comically inept :)