to think this probably isn't normal for a C-section

[ZingyThingy]

I regularly lurk and sometimes post. I've name changed as I'm considering taking legal action against a hospital and I want this to be as anonymous as possible. I am also aware that this isn't the best place to put this but I need a bit of info fast.

I had an EMCS after a long labour. CS was mooted about two hours before it actually went ahead. During those two hours I repeatedly told the midwife that I could feel the baby going down into the pelvic bones and was ignored. Just before my baby was taken out of me I felt pressure all over my body to the point where I couldn't breathe. DH thinks this was the operating team lying on me. Then there was a huge amount of pulling, so much so that the operating table left the floor and returned with a bang, to a chorus of shocked 'ohs!' from the team. I have been told this is normal for a c-section, is it?

Are you concerned that you weren't listened to, and as a result your baby was yanked out? And if you had been listened to, perhaps it wouldn't have been so traumatic? If that's the case your upset is totally understandable. I think mentioning legal action is a knee jerk reaction in the hope of Getting Something Done and maybe a thorough debrief might help with that more.
I hope you and your baby are ok, it must have been terrifying.

This is where I feel they go very wrong in EMCS.

I had my first one and asked the MW afterwards to go through everything with me. We had a kind of debrief and it made all the difference in the world to how I felt about everything.

When I was off my face on gas and air was not the best time for me to take things in, although that was when I signed the consent form.

I was bf my baby and said to the MW, would she please go through it all. She was more than happy to do so, showing the graphs with DDs heart rate decelerating,in line with contractions.

My friend had and EMCS a couple of weeks after and was upset by it and felt it affected her bond with her baby. Had she had the same kind of chat, I don't think she would have struggled so much.

Anyway, the point of this ramble is, I wonder if your MW would be willing/able to have the same kind of chat with you now, if you think that might help you.

I had my first by EMCS.
I wasn't prepared for it at all, it wasn't even in the back of my mind.

I was extremely upset after it. I questioned for weeks after whether I needed it or why that decision was made.
I think it's part of the process.

How long ago was your baby born?
I think you may have some misplaced anger towards the team at your baby's birth not being how you imagined.

I don't think legal action is the right focus for you at all.

You said your cs was mooted two hours before it went ahead,do you mean it was decided upon two hours before or they said you didn't need one two hours before? If it is the first then unfortunately operating theaters tend to run by who needs it more. There could have been a crash section that happened so they would need to attend that obviously before you,availability of an anesthetist,clean up of theater after a hemorrhage, many many reasons.
As others have said the feeling of immense pressure on your bump is unplesant but normal. Ds was quite far down so they used fundal pressure and forceps to get him out which burst the blood vessels in his eyes,he had bloodshot eyes for a week after.

On TV it seems that cs are lovely and calm,little cut,out pops baby. In reality,especially with EMCS they can be quite rough looking with pushing and pulling with quite a lot of force.

Congratulations on your baby.

OP, please come and chat if you need to.

Lots of us have been through this.

yes a debrief with maybe the head of midwifery would really help you to understand what happened

If you've not had a CS one can imagine it is a wee cut, lift out baby, gently onto Mama's chest, a quick rub down, a little once over on the table in the corner then straight back to parents whilst stitching up is taking place.

As you can see from many posts above, this is more of a planned CS experience, EMCS are a bit more erm frantic and racing-against-timey, up to elbows in your tummy, rummaging as if in a gladstone-type medical bag to release the baby

I do hope you are all recovering well, OP

Hi Zingy
The thing with emluscs is that u will never be prepared for it as its a 'rush' to get done.

This alone can be really distressing alone. I highly doubt the medical team were leaning on you and they would of been pulling really hard to get babys head out of your pelvis.

Im speaking from a mw and a mother whos had 2 emluscs. Dd1 heart rate plummeted when i was 8 cm dilated. Dd2 was born by cs at 34 for placeta praevia after i haemorrhage d at home. If it wasnt for quick action of the medical team i would of had 2 dead babies. Both times where by general anaesthetic.

I never had any bonding issues, i still have a bit of pain in scar but im just happy that i have 2 healthy little girls and thank the medical team who saved me and my babies.

Ps ask for a debriefing. Ur gp should help out there. Ur notes will be pulled back up and an app will b made fir u to discuss why u had a cs and how it would of been better for baby.

Hopefully after this, u can have a clear mind and be able to move on and enjoy ur wee baby xxx

I may have missed something, so I apologise in advance.

Why are you proposing to take legal action?

When you're having a section, if it isn't an emergency, you do have to wait, even when in labour. It is horrible. But that does happen.

It also does feel weird when they're pulling the baby out.

You can see your notes at the hospital & also see PALS.

In my first section, the baby was laying back to back and became jammed at 8 cms dilated after 36 hours of full labour. I knew 5 hours before getting the section that it was going to happen, unfortunately I had to wait as my baby (happily) was not in distress and the theatre was needed for other emergencies. As he was already well down the pelvic canal, yes there was a lot of tugging to get him back out - that doesn't mean the section was unecessary, his head had tilted, he was 9lb 13 oz and there was no way he was coming out any other way. The operating beds are quite narrow and due to the amount of tugging they were having to do, the anaesthetist and my OH did have to hold me down at the top to ensure that the surgeon and support had a bit of leverage to pull without risking me coming off.

I was fine and my baby was perfect - what's to complain about?

I am really struggling to see what your issue is OP and why you would want to complain.

OP I feel for you as birth can be a traumatising experience. I have 5DC and have had natural births, EMC and planned CS, each one with something 'going wrong'. My fifth DC is 7 months now and was a planned CS ~ surgeon said I had lots of scar tissue and it was tricky to get her out ~ lots of pushing and pulling ~ but all the staff in the operating theatre kept up a stream of chat ~ telling me what was happening, putting me at ease etc.

You are very exposed and vulnerable at this time and its a huge moment in your life ~ I can remember all of my births in detail ~ I think the key is to have been able to talk about your experience, either as its happening / afterwards. I was just relieved that all my babies were safe and well.

Please talk to someone and enjoy your baby ~ don't become bitter and involved in a legal dispute

I'm sorry you've had such a horrible experience.

I really feel for you. I had a day and night of contractions and pre labour and Then had a 52 hour labour (full on labour and dialating). Before an emcs.

The whole thing was a long and painful nightmare. I still have flash backs and night terrors over 4 years on.

Lots of things went wrong which I don't want to bore you with. But when they were ready to do the emcs, I was on the table and they had opened me up. At that point they called two other people as they couldn't decide how to get DD out. As in she was wedged in a funny way and they wanted to avoid hurting her so hum and ahh'd over which "way"'to get her out. Not nice and at that point after such a long labour I was convinced they were actually going to kill us both and we were about to die. I think I was screaming no and I want to go home a lot but they ignored me and focused on task in hand.

I do recall them saying that they were considering using forceps through the CS incision to help DD out.

In the end two of them stuck their hands in and manipulated DD free and out she came.

DD and I were safe. DD was and is perfect (pfb of course).

I have since had a DS by a lovely calm planned elcs.

Still though I feel for you as it was traumatic for me in lots of ways. Not just the CS part but the mistakes made during my labour. A problem on the ward afterwards with a male midwife and the fact my uterus wouldn't clamp down after the delivery and the endless silence in the operating room whilst waiting for my uterus to clamp down whilst I bled out fast. I was alone as DH had gone with DD and I was silently crying because I was so delirious I thought these people were going to kill me and I wouldn't get to hold my DD. awful.

All I am saying is even a CS can be a rough delivery with tugging and forceps. And a bad birth can leave you feeling violated and traumatised. However the staff mostly do their best and are not trying to hurt you.

I don't know the full ins and outs of your situation so I can't say whether you should think about legal action. I do think you should talk to them and your GP and see your records to gain insight.

I don't know whether councelling would help. Perhaps you just need greater insight into what happened to understand.

Again sorry for your experience.

Once again thanks for this. This episode was one of long saga of things that went wrong, some due to negligence, some due to over worked staff, some due to bad management, some due to stupidity and some just due to bad luck.
This particular incident was one I had no knowledge base to judge from, unlike most of the others.As there has been suggestion made at one point during the investigation that selectively witholding information may be a factor in some of it, I was a bit wary of getting all my info from the hospital but MN has supplied.
I'm actually quite a long way down the line with this and am considering the possibility of legal action as a very final resort, along with looking into involving a regulatory body.

Are you and your baby well?

Ah you have had a really bad experience all round, I am sorry

Sounds crap OP

I do remember being seriously shocked at how much tugging and pushing was involved in my section and my tiddler was only 3 lbs 9 ! I had such a bad pain in my chest at one point I thought I was having a heart attack and I needed extra oxygen, the anaesthesiologist talked me through everything though so I knew what was happening.

I hope you get the outcome you are looking for

I run a debriefing service and I strongly recommend you do this with the hospital, it sounds like you need some explanations & it will help clarify events/fill in blanks. they should be able to put you in touch with their medico-legal dept to obtain notes etc. and you should be able to get in contact with the head of midwifery/ clinical director as well if you wish.

Op - as others have asked are you both well?

As someone that has also lost a newborn son after an emcs (lack of oxygen in the womb NOT caused by emcs) I believe my life was saved by consultants doing their job, and they did what they could to save my son. I was VERY much ignored that day, as the focus was saving mine and my sons life, not my patient comfort and the emcs was horrendously traumatic physically and emotionally but I trust the right decisions were made.

Giving birth in any way can be a traumatic experience and if you consider the fact that midwives, consultants etc are trained and experienced I believe it's inevitable that sometimes the mother's wishes take a backstep.
I know I didn't want forceps with my first child- but I got them and it was after the birth, I realise it was the right thing to do.

I assume you have had a debrief and I'm sorry that you had a traumatic experience but unfortunately giving birth can be difficult and traumatic- but if you consider the amount of lives midwives and consultants save by taking their initiative, the comfort of the mother is sometimes inevitably affected.

Sorry I didn't mean also lost, just lost!

OP what makes you claim medical negligence? Were either you or your child harmed? I understand feeling traumatised I was treated for a type of post traumatic stress after my daughters undiagnosed breech birth.

I still think your focus is on the wrong thing OP.
You seem keen to find blame or fault and you aren't answering anyone's inquiries here.

I hope you and baby are well.

Try the hospital's PALS service if you need more information about what happened. It is traumatic and disempowering to go through this sort of emergency surgery and you need to understand what happened and why. However I notice that you haven't answered all the questions about whether you or your baby were harmed. If not, you do not have a case for negligence. Even if harm occurred, you would need to show that there is a greater than 50% chance that it would not have happened if the MWs and doctors had acted differently.

"OP what makes you claim medical negligence? Were either you or your child harmed?"

There is no need for physical damage to have been done for medical negligence to be claimed.

In fact one of the worst things you can do during childbirth is fail to obtain informed consent. People walk away from that but can still have suffered unnecessary harm.

It isn't actually the case that as long as both mother and baby are alive and not physically damaged then the hospital must have been in the right.

This is in fact total bollocks.

It matters how you got there - not just the end result.