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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To wonder why the actual fuck I am being asked to go on a course about "women in business"

115 replies

TantrumsAndBalloons · 07/10/2013 11:30

....when, I am in fact a woman who has been in this particular area of "business" for the last 16 years?

What exactly will it be teaching me?

Surely it would be more helpful for the cave men who work here to go on this particular course so they understand that, guess what? Being a woman in a male dominated office is actually ok. And that women are actually able to do the job just as well as you, a penis is not actually required to have a functioning mind.

I cannot believe people are actually still doing these courses, I thought it was generally accepted now that women are not so inferior that they need an entire days course to learn how to do a job they have been doing for 16 fucking years?

I have respectfully declined.
Well no I haven't. I sent my director an email saying "do you want me to actually give the "lesson" on how to be a woman? No? Then I fail to see why I would need to go and learn how to be one. Thanks anyway. There may be other people here who may find it useful"

OP posts:
tethersend · 07/10/2013 13:45

Which comment, Foxy?

LessMissAbs · 07/10/2013 13:46

PeppiNephrine which shows a pretty low opinion of those who might get something out of it

I don't think it does. I think it shows a healthy scepticism for a tick boxing exercise that will more likely waste business time than anything else. And I do think courses like this risk driving home sexist stereotypes, rather than just letting those with talent rise to the top, as is happening now with the gender balance of students being admitted to the medical and legal professions.

I also think you have to be very careful whom you receive training from and who you use to train your employees. There are so many training providers out there who are just not very good and who are not audited independently for quality. There is always going to be a problem if you try and provide training to someone who is more qualified and/or experience in the field the training is being offered in, unless the provider is truly excellent. And I'm afraid that in my field, most excellent practitioners will be in practice, or in academia - not providing training in an informal setting for no qualifications.

Original poster
TantrumsAndBalloons · 07/10/2013 13:47

Unhinged?
Would you like to clarify that point?

Because objecting to being offered a course that has no relevance to my career does not seem unhinged in any way.

Or am I supposed to be quiet and not question anything in case it upsets somebody?

OP posts:
tethersend · 07/10/2013 13:47

Good post, chocolatehunter.

Original poster
TantrumsAndBalloons · 07/10/2013 13:54

wilson yes I think you are right. I am the only female senior management. I could be the only person to conceivably attend the course.
It's just infuriating.
The course content is infuriating. If you have got to senior management, the chances are you have managed to deal with whatever these female complexities are.
I don't want to be taught how to behave like a man tbh, I am assuming that is what this course is for, judging by the content of it.
I do not think there is any difference in the way I work to my male colleague. And I do not think I need to take an entire day of my working week in order to do something that I have already been doing.

AND I think if this is something that women need, then surely there should be a male equivalent.

How to treat women in the workplace like equals?
Why is it up to women to do the course?

OP posts:
FoxyHarlow123 · 07/10/2013 13:54

How to prove that u are as capable as a man.

FoxyHarlow123 · 07/10/2013 13:59

I'm not saying u have to be quiet. I'm just saying that u are going a little over the top, IMO. You are just so angry about it. I mean, if you're a senior manager, surely you are so busy as to be able to park this and crack on with the million and one other things you must have to do. And yes, you are being sniffy about it and implicit in your posts is the suggestion that its beneath you.

tethersend · 07/10/2013 14:02

That wasn't a comment Foxy, it was part of the course content Confused

Even so, it being tongue-in-cheek in no way lessens the acceptance of the status quo. It's institutionalised shaking of the head whilst giggling, "Oh, men, what are they like, eh?"

This is a huge problem which affects women of all social backgrounds, not an episode of Loose Women.

Original poster
TantrumsAndBalloons · 07/10/2013 14:04

I am sniffy about it because it is not relevant and tbh I think that women should bloody well speak up when they are offered a course on the basis of not being in possession of a penis. I really do.

If you do not feel the same, thats fine. It doesnt make me unhinged to think that these courses should not be necessary and should not be offered to anyone female, regardless of whether it is useful or not.

OP posts:
limitedperiodonly · 07/10/2013 14:11

I also suspect someone has chivvied your director up about their department's non-appearance at said diversity/inclusion events

Sounds right wilsonfrickett.

One company I worked for was keen on promoting from within, often moving people, nearly always women, from secretarial roles to a different and much more interesting job.

All good, except the training was woeful. The company used to have one or two-day courses in things that aren't really hard, but take a lot longer than that to learn in a proper training structure with experienced colleagues always on hand to guide. I suspect the prime motive was that it was cheap.

Some of us came from outside and had been properly trained and had years of experience. We ignored those courses as more irrelevant than insulting until someone whose job depended on rounding up bodies for courses corralled us into one.

The tutor was explaining things I'd learned on an apprenticeship 20 years before. And she wasn't explaining them very well so it wasn't even helping the people who didn't know.

She gave us an exercise that those of who knew what she was on about completed quickly. She praised us while patronising the poor sods who hadn't understood her garbled instructions.

I doubt if she realised she was a fraud. I think she thought some of us had understood her and the others were just thick.

Her confidence and cheek despite her incompetence is making me wonder now whether she'd been on a course on How To Be A Consultant: Con Gullible HR Departments Module.

FriendlyLadybird · 07/10/2013 14:12

This doesn't necessarily sound like the right course for you, OP, but I would urge others not to dismiss women-only courses or think that the battle for equality is won. I'm working on a project about women in leadership right now, and it involves a women-only leadership course. The crux of the argument is that women have a distinctive leadership style which is what they world needs more of -- but there are cultural and systemic barriers to women's advancement which is why they are under-represented in leadership positions throughout the world. Our course, far from teaching women to be more like men, is focused on supporting women in finding their own voices and creating a vision for cultural change. It's conducted in a women-only environment in fact because it takes gender out of the equation.

WilsonFrickett · 07/10/2013 14:13

Well I'd disagree with your last post. Clearly the course isn't relevant to you, and clearly your director should have gone back to HR (or whoever) and said 'there's no-one here to whom that level of training would be relevant.'

But in your organisation there will be some women who will benefit from this level of training. And if your organisation is properly committed to diversity it will have analysed some of the factors which prevent women reaching senior management, and put together a course to address them. No harm in that.

Just because you, a woman, may not have needed training in these areas to reach your level doesn't mean other women don't. And presumably the course is targeted at women because there are very few senior women in your organisation.

unless of course they just have some budget to spend before year-end and diversity training looks good

Original poster
TantrumsAndBalloons · 07/10/2013 14:21

I am not dismissing the idea of a course. But i dont think a course should be teaching women how to be a capable as men.

It drives me crazy that there are no female senior management. But teaching women that they have to prove they are as capable as men, to behave like men, will not change this IMO

It is the male employers who need the course. The people who refuse to believe that a woman can perform in a male dominated industry and need courses to teach them

OP posts:
FoxyHarlow123 · 07/10/2013 14:22

So I see it is tethered! Sweet cheeses! Laughable.

FoxyHarlow123 · 07/10/2013 14:23

No OP, objecting doesn't make you unhinged but going batshit crazy about it does a little bit!

Original poster
TantrumsAndBalloons · 07/10/2013 14:26

sorry, where was the part that I went "batshit crazy" about it?

OP posts:
FoxyHarlow123 · 07/10/2013 14:28

You are in a powerful position. You can visibly demonstrate every day of your working life that women are intelligent, capable, trustworthy and bring results. That is far more powerful than getting up in arms about something you disagree with. Another thought - why don't you offer to speak at this course? You obviously have unique insights into what it takes to make it to the top in your org.

FoxyHarlow123 · 07/10/2013 14:29

Ok, I'm exaggerating!! You are going a bit off the deep end! Sorry, I'm being combatative and contrary! Win the war, not just the battle!

PeppiNephrine · 07/10/2013 14:35

One of the reasons the glass ceiling is so firmly in place is due to some women finding a hole through it and then pulling the ladder up with them. Very little compassion from women at the top to those at the bottom.

Original poster
TantrumsAndBalloons · 07/10/2013 14:41

is that directed at me peppi?

I dont know what you mean by compassion. I f I am hiring someone, I will go for the best person for the job. I wont hire a woman over a better qualified, more suitable man. If that is what you mean. I will very much go out of my way to help anyone that needs it.

OP posts:
FoxyHarlow123 · 07/10/2013 14:47

What tosh Peppi. Men are just as 'guilty' of that. It's tough at the top and its human nature to want to protect yourself. Only the supremely confident will give others a leg up. Are you suggesting women should be more giving and compassionate, just by virtue of being women?

PeppiNephrine · 07/10/2013 14:48

no, I'm not. I'm suggesting that they shouldn't be LESS by virtue of being women. Sitting above shouting ner ner I'm better than you is up to you though.

FoxyHarlow123 · 07/10/2013 14:53

But how can you profess to know the first thing about me? Up to me? How do you know whether I'm even working, let alone sitting at the top, shouting ner ner.

QuintessentialShadows · 07/10/2013 14:53

Teaching women to be as capable as men, is implying they arent.

LessMissAbs · 07/10/2013 14:55

Maybe some of those women you are deriding just want to get on with their actual jobs PeppiNephrine, rather than conforming to some kind of stereotype dreamed up to fill useless courses.

"How to speak in a room full of men" FFS how patronising. Why would you even go about noticing the gender of those you are speaking in front of? Not every woman is a timid shrinking violet, and not every man is a power hungry raptor. I don't see many courses run for men who have to speak in front of a female audience - mainly because they would rightly be criticised as sexist patronising twaddle.