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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To wonder why the actual fuck I am being asked to go on a course about "women in business"

115 replies

TantrumsAndBalloons · 07/10/2013 11:30

....when, I am in fact a woman who has been in this particular area of "business" for the last 16 years?

What exactly will it be teaching me?

Surely it would be more helpful for the cave men who work here to go on this particular course so they understand that, guess what? Being a woman in a male dominated office is actually ok. And that women are actually able to do the job just as well as you, a penis is not actually required to have a functioning mind.

I cannot believe people are actually still doing these courses, I thought it was generally accepted now that women are not so inferior that they need an entire days course to learn how to do a job they have been doing for 16 fucking years?

I have respectfully declined.
Well no I haven't. I sent my director an email saying "do you want me to actually give the "lesson" on how to be a woman? No? Then I fail to see why I would need to go and learn how to be one. Thanks anyway. There may be other people here who may find it useful"

OP posts:
PeppiNephrine · 07/10/2013 12:49

Lots of women do get value from courses like these. Obviously, you're much better than them and have no need for it, but there really is no need to deride the courses entirely.

JessicaLundge · 07/10/2013 12:50

YABU. I work at a senior level in a very make industry where there are v few women right at the top. I happen to be assertive and sure of myself but I can't tell you the number of times when I've been talked over by men, who simply don't seem to be able to hear. I dropped the tone of my voice (a la Mrs Thatcher, mid 70sGrin )and was able to be heard better.
Men and women ARE treated differently - men are judged on their potential, women on their results. I wish to fuck these courses weren't necessary and OP for you as an individual it's probably not relevant but sadly until the glass ceiling is smashed, anything that helps redress the continuing hideous imbalance, is worth doing.

JessicaLundge · 07/10/2013 12:54

And, (on soapbox!) generally speaking men will apply for a position if they can do half of the spec but fancy doing it. Women are more likely to only apply of they can do alimony all the spec. So men will risk rejection more but get lucky more. I'll find the research if anyone is interested.
The imbalance between the genders is ghastly.

Original poster
TantrumsAndBalloons · 07/10/2013 12:57

Again, I am pissed off because I was asked to do this course for no other reason than being a woman.

I don't think I am better than anyone else.

I know I have worked for the same company for 16 years. I am now senior management.
I haven't had any problems with the people I work with. No problems doing presentations, talking to clients, and no issues with the complexities of being a woman.
I have been here for 16 years. In a male dominated office.

If I had been offered a course on how to be a better accountant I would think why the actual fuck did they ask me to do this? It's not relevant because I am not an accountant.
But this course is equally as irelevant. And tbh my director should know it is irelevant, not try and put me on the course because I am the only female senior managment, it is bullshit.

OP posts:
Original poster
TantrumsAndBalloons · 07/10/2013 12:59

And yes I agree with you jessica women are judged on results. And the gender imbalance is horrific.

Which is why I am so bloody furious it's been suggested to me. Courses that are totally irelevant are not suggested to the men.

OP posts:
Mumsyblouse · 07/10/2013 13:00

jessica I don't doubt everything you say is true. I am sure these courses can be quite useful, however my objection to them in my own workplace is that my institution uses them (in every advert, all over the website) to show what a truly wonderful equal employer they are, but they are not! Going on this course at my institution won't make a deal of difference if women continually have to be always better than the men for the same money and same opportunities.

vixsatis · 07/10/2013 13:00

YANBU. I hate these things. The content always boils down to "how to be more like a man"; and giving the courses just allows organisations to put a tick in the "diversity initiatives" box

MillicentTendancies · 07/10/2013 13:01

Sadly a lot of people do need a course aimed at combating sexism but these people generally have a penis.

I'm all for a softskills courses about boosting confidence etc but they should be open to male or female staff.

No matter what course I go on, it wont stop colleagues taking the piss that I got X opportunity cos I have big tits will it? It might stop me feeling less shit about it, but then why should I have to?

YANBU

PeppiNephrine · 07/10/2013 13:03

If that was your only complaint, then fair enough. But you are criticising the courses and seem rather sneery about women who do them. Is it good that this shit is still necessary? of course not, but if they do empower some women to stand up for themselves more or make their path easier in some way, then they are incredibly worthwhile.
We aren't all long term employees, senior management. The vast majority of women are not like you, maybe think about them a bit instead of how insulted you are to be seen as something like them.

Mumsyblouse · 07/10/2013 13:04

There is some value in examining how you come across/how you can best optimise your career as a woman in what are inherently still very sexist institutions (not on paper, but the veneer is thin and easily seen through). I just don't want my employers to have noted that they are sexist and women don't have great opportunities (yes, they even noticed this) but then fob them off with a bloody course.

tethersend · 07/10/2013 13:08

"How to prove that you are as capable as a man"

Errr... why do you have to prove that you are as capable as a man? Confused

Straight away this accepts the misconceptions that men are automatically good at their jobs by virtue of being a man, and that women should have to prove themselves. Do men have to prove they are as capable as a woman?

I'm not against women-only courses per se, but who is this course being run by? Sid James?

Original poster
TantrumsAndBalloons · 07/10/2013 13:09

peppi where did I do that?
I asked what it would teach me?

OP posts:
PeppiNephrine · 07/10/2013 13:12

I cannot believe people are actually still doing these courses, I thought it was generally accepted now that women are not so inferior that they need an entire days course to learn how to do a job they have been doing for 16 fucking years?

Its patronizing and stupid

Clearly its not relevant to you personally. But you seem very irate that someone might think it had anything to do with you, which shows a pretty low opinion of those who might get something out of it.

Original poster
TantrumsAndBalloons · 07/10/2013 13:21

But that part that you quoted was relating to me
Clearly, that is why I mentioned the 16 years.
Where on earth does that imply that I am looking down on anyone?

OP posts:
tethersend · 07/10/2013 13:22

I don't think that this course would be good for any woman, as it encourages them to accept institutional sexism as the status quo.

Scarifying · 07/10/2013 13:26

Some of the comments on this thread are very funny Grin

I would be peed off about being offered the course too. It sounds patronising. It re-enforces sexism by suggesting women need special treatment. Confused.

QuintessentialShadows · 07/10/2013 13:28

Maybe Tantrums is irate that the gender imbalance is still so prevalent in business still, rather than irate that SHE got it when she does not need it?

Why even make an issue.

Why not make general courses about how everybody is useful and can make valid contributions regardless of their age, gender, ethnicity, etc?

Now, THAT would be useful. I think these types of courses build up under gender inequality rather than unify the workforce.

DameFellatioNelson · 07/10/2013 13:29

YANBU. Patronising twaddle.

edam · 07/10/2013 13:33

Grr what a pile of crock. Am not surprised you are pissed off. Do like your reply to your director, though. Grin

YY such a course may be useful to someone else, but clearly has only been suggested to you because you are female, without any thought about whether it actually benefits you as an individual.

LessMissAbs · 07/10/2013 13:33

limitedperiodonly When the instructor asked what it meant, I said, this is me in my chair, that's the door and I want to go through it and never come back

Sounds splendidly goal driven!

FoxyHarlow123 · 07/10/2013 13:37

I love how everyone is using the penis word in such a derisory manner. If there was a group if men saying, yeah but they think they can do the job better just cos they've got a pair of tits, everyone would be quite rightly up in arms.

Can I suggest you calm down about it. Let those who want to go on the session go and get something useful from it. Decline the invite. If asked, put your points across in a non-inflammatory way and just get on with your job. You are coming across as someone slightly unhinged, given that you are a professional senior manager.

LessMissAbs · 07/10/2013 13:38

PeppiNephrine but there really is no need to deride the courses entirely

Whats wrong with criticising the course content if its poor? Why should such courses be exempt from criticism? I had, and now do again, lecture in the subject of the course I criticised, at university level. I am paid to make judgements like this, as its part of being an academic. However, no-one should be afraid of using their own judgement to make criticism if valid - I would have thought that was one of the basic tenets of such a course on women in business, so it would be ironic if its effect were to encourage women to stay silent instead of speaking out when necessary!

FoxyHarlow123 · 07/10/2013 13:41

Tethersend, that comment was tongue in cheek, not literal.

WilsonFrickett · 07/10/2013 13:43

I suspect it's a poor attempt at diversity and inclusion training.
I also suspect someone has chivvied your director up about their department's non-appearance at said diversity/inclusion events and their eye has landed on the nearest non-penis holder, which just happens to be Tantrums.

Of course the director should have read the course content before forwarding on the email, but probably didn't think it through. I don't - personally - think that's evidence of rampant sexism in the organisation, as many women do benefit from female-only courses. More that the director is one of those people who likes firing out the emails rather than thinking about what's written within them.

Chocolatehunter · 07/10/2013 13:43

Quintessential - Equality isn't about treating everyone the same though, it's about recognising the barriers that different groups of people have to overcome in order to reach a set point. Women face barriers in so many different ways and the problem is now executed in a more subtle way so is harder to root out. Take a look in your organisation, who cleans the toilets? Who serves food in the canteen? Who sits at reception? Then look at who sits at the top of the tree? Is there a gender balance? Do they have children? Do they get paid the same? Do they have temporary contracts when men are more likely to have permanent contracts? Until you can answer all of those questions you cant really say if your employer is an equal employer or not.