about the feminism/WR area?

[fleacircus]

I don't like dogs, and I think most television is irredeemably stupid drivel and that there's no excuse for anyone with an actual life of their own to watch 'Made in Chelsea', and although I like knitting I don't really get the point of scrap-booking. Those are my opinions, and I'm entitled to hold them, and I would construct arguments to support them if pushed, but I don't go onto the TV thread and find people who like 'Made in Chelsea' and then go on about how wrong they are and when they get angry keep saying 'you just can't take it that other people don't share your opinions' until they get bored and give up on the thread altogether.

And I've got all the kids I want, thank you very much, so I'm not TTC, and I was lucky to conceive my kids in a very straightforward manner, so I don't actually know anything about how it feels not to, and I don't have any useful advice or insights for those who are TTC, and I don't have any medical expertise about TTC, so I've set my MN preferences not to display those threads.

So why is it that people who clearly have no interest in feminism or women's rights, and no knowledge of the often complex political, social and personal ideas being explored, and don't actually hope to learn anything or contribute anything of any value, hang around that area spoiling for a fight? Because there's a whole section of MN dedicated to expressing your opinions. It's this one. There's a question mark in the title and everything.

Or AIBU?

I'm glad it's there and I go on every so often. I mainly go on frivolous threads. Including the MiC ones, they are good.

But yes it should be free from trolls like any other section.

ArmyOfPenguins 09.47am. It is posts like that on the feminism boards, that sometimes keep me away from there. The posts designed to shut down posters who deign to disagree. Hardly what you would call welcoming.

But why does anyone expect posters on a particular board to be welcoming? Did you expect a red carpet rolled out when you first started posting on Relationships, or Chat or AIBU? Why are feminists or posters on that board, expected to welcome posters when you wouldn't reasonably expect it elsewhere?

I agree with Army. On debate type threads where there is a cross-flow of opinions, a reasoned argument supported by facts is likely to be more compelling and persuasive than one which is poorly thought through and based on nothing more than opinions. A wise head might try to find out more about the subject and learn something, whereas someone who always wants to be 'right' (and perhaps dislikes feminism and feminists) might complain about being 'dismissed and shot down'. Disagreement is fine, but if you're looking to get others to agree with your point of view and why you disagree with something or someone, be prepared to back it up with a persuasive argument.

I have to be honest here - I consider myself a feminist. But the FWR board has turned me off mostly. At one point every other thread seemed to be some anti-transgender nastiness, or a hyper-academic one that lamented the Latinised scientific nomenclature on the grounds it was developed by men, or used words like heteronormative. I'm just too tired and short of headspace to even understand most of it, never mind contribute, so I stay away .

Fishandjam - It's not like that anymore, so please feel free to come back.

yabu. Feminism as I was raised to believe in it was about supporting equal rights, opportunities, freedom, education and respect for women and the idea that the state should support and protect that. Women should be recognised as moral, responsible adults and treated as such under the law. Not as children.

Some of what passes as feminism on these boards are quite bizarre. Apparently telling your daughters not to walk home vulnerable, drunk, alone, in heels they can't run in is victim blaming rather than common sense. (although you can tell her not to wave wads of cash around in public or to lock her doors, presumably because that's not 'sexist').

Abortion up to the last minute is fine because it's a 'woman's right' despite there being a fully formed, healthy, viable baby.

Women are always the innocent victims who if they do something wrong must either be mentally ill and in need of help or driven to it by a man and in need of help. Men are just evil.

There was a thread where someone was complaining about having to 'suffer' a man up at the bar telling a few mil and blonde jokes to his friends within earshot. And that wasn't laughed off the thread...no, it was a sign of neverending victimhood by the patriarchy, as bad as racism, homophobia, disablism.... Obviously by people who'd never experienced any of those things let alone genuine sexism or sexual harassment.

"All my knowledge is from gut feelings, experience, reading links posted on places like the FWR board, learning from others there/elsewhere "
from AnyFucker - that pretty much sums up what I meant by saying that people would hopefully have some interest in the topic OR be open about promoting their own opinion without knowing much about the issue.

Because the feminism board has simialities with religion as far as I am concerned. People need to be encouraged, welcomed etc. That isnt necessary with most other boards.

Why would I expect the Feminism boards to be openly welcoming to other women?

Why would I expect the Feminism boards to be encouraging, especially to women who were just beginning to think about and explore Feminism?

Do you seriously have to ask that?

Because, if you do, I think people who have "no knowledge of the often complex political, social and personal ideas being explored" are the least of your problems.

I think the feminism boards should be welcoming, and I think they are. Periodically people start threads that are deliberately meant to be easy to jump into.

I don't think every single thread will be 'welcoming', or nice for everyone.

FWIW, I have virtually no academic knowledge of feminism and in the past I used to feel very stupid on there (which I know isn't necessarily a bad thing, so long as people are encouraging). What I don't appreciate is being told that in order to participate in a debate, I must read such-and-such a work of feminist theory.

I think it's better to say, look, you're not understanding this debate because you've not understood the terms - but in that situation, someone should be able to start a new thread asking for clarification, they shouldn't be shut out. And I really don't think that anyone should feel they have to read whole books to participate (unless the thread is actually 'Discuss the finer points of Dworkin's later writing').

My feminism is completely experience-based, but since I've been posting on here for a few years, all sorts of concepts and terminology have sunk in. It's inevitable.

No catgirl, why should they be any more welcoming than any other board? Given that people there are generally chatting among themselves and not out to convert people, why should they make more of an effort than anyone else on mn?

I think the FWR board has turned off a lot of women over the years. I'm an academic feminist (perfectly used to robust debate, and used to the theoretical language) and I've found the FWR boards pretty vitriolic and unfriendly, so I tend to avoid them these days. My real life experiences of feminism (academic and practical feminist organisations and groups) have been characterised by women generally being supportive of each other, even when they disagree on aspects of feminism, but on the FWR boards it has often felt as though there's only one acceptable version of feminism, anyone who challenges that is at risk of being branded a non-feminist or rape-apologist.

I realise it might have changed lately, but I think quite a few of the long term mumsnet feminists avoid it for these reasons. It's a shame, but it's not just the trolls who have made it an unwelcoming place.

I love the academicness and I've always found it supportive.
It's a pretty subjective thing, I guess.

Yes, I agree with MaddAddam. I'm a bright, well-educated feminist who's worked her way through plenty of theory, plenty of activism and plenty of robust argument about feminism over the years. I love the company and support of other women. I've also retreated, savaged, from these boards for daring to, for instance, query the stereotype of matriarchal religion, or say I think Mary Daly's prose style is perhaps a little imperfect, or - gasp shock horror - have trans friends.

Happyon, surely the whole point of feminism is to convert and change society?. I want all women to identify as feminist. I believe that our world will be a much better place when women are respected. It is precisely the notion that feminism is some sort of closed clique that is damaging the message of equality and emancipation for all women.

I'd love to know who is doing the savaging.
I haven't been in here much lately but it looks pretty mild to me these days. I'm amazed these threads are still going.

Yes I do seriously have to ask that, catgirl.

It's a reasonable question and your response to it reveals part of the problem that's being raised by the OP.

This is a chatboard. All that's required of posters is that they stick to the guidelines in order to participate.

Regulars and occasional posters on the Feminism board have no extra responsibilities to welcome people. As early posters seemed to be at pains to point out, anyone can post there- no-one or no group 'owns' the board and has a responsibility for it.

Neither do I think posters who use it have a responsibility to convert anyone, encourage people or feel that they have some sort of religious responsibility [shocked]

FWIW, I've seen lots of threads started by people who are curious about feminism and want to know more- and I've seen posters on that board respond to the honesty of that in kind, often going to enormous trouble to send book lists and links, or just giving up their time to help.

But I suspect the posters who expect feminists to be more welcoming and encouraging to posters have exactly the same expectations of women in real life, far more than they do of men on a chatboard or in social situations. Which is the sort of subtle but intensely frustrating issue that feminists like to discuss on a chatboard, without having a troll barge into the conversation with an insult or someone else trying to derail it to talk about how great it is to buy sex.

I'm not going to call names, I'm afraid.

Suffice it to say, I'm a tough old feminist boot who's been around the block a lot since I first got involved in supporting the local shelter for battered women in Norwich, back in 1981. I've agonised over my inability to be a proper vegan separatist. The iron logo of the women's press has adorned my shelves for more than half my lifetime. I am ludicrously right-on.

And that, perhaps, is why at times I have felt a little de trop when being lectured by posters past about my views.

I don't doubt your feminist credentials MI, and I wouldn't seriously expect anyone to post names. I just find it bizarre when I think about the people I know who post there now. Is this something that happened a few years back or recently?

Maybe a year ago? I've not been back. Didn't sort of see why I would waste my time on it. Also I have trans friends, which was all making it a bit difficult.l

inferior - You have trans friends. So do I. Some trans people are critical of the dominant transgender theories too.

But as long as everyone is polite, I don't see the issue with disagreeing.

I comment on FWR and am not there to "convert" anyone. I just comment on posts that interest me - like the rest of the forum. I thought that was the same for everyone on FWR

I don't go on the feminist boards. It was a disagreement over it was wrong to warn your DD not to take lifts from men they didn't know, and not to walk alone in a dark street. They were saying you should be able to. Of course you should but that's not the point. It's all vey well to discuss academic theories and feel very smug. All women should identify as feminists in that they want equality for women. But these boards are enough to put anybody off.

I'm in the same neighbourhood as motherinferior, as a feminist for over 30ish years. I too found the occasional harangue somewhat and the narrowness of certain POV irritating. I used to walk away from threads like that.
But as Gosh and LRD point out, the general atmosphere of the boards has changed considerably since the shakeup a while back, and although it might not be to the liking of some, and many of the disappointed did leave, it enabled naive questions and those from the bewildered to be asked without getting squished quite so often and with quite so much relish as in the past.
The other point about being inclusive and welcoming, well I suppose it depends on who's posting at the time and how they see things as working.
The one thing that I do find odd is those that are feminist asking why so many strong, independent and intelligent women refuse the label, whilst defining it in a specific way. Then when others try and explain why they don't see themselves as one, it is reduced to 'Do you have a vagina? Do you want to be in charge of what happens to it? Then you are a feminist'
When in reality there are so many other add-on extras to the basics that alienate some who think of themselves as feminists.
I think how you live your life, and the expectations that you have of yourself and others are far more defining than any number of words and quotes.

But these boards are enough to put anybody off.

No, not anybody. Wouldn't put me off in the slightest. It's just a chatboard. I've disagreed with a few people on Relationships from time to time- people who post there far more regularly than me. Doesn't put me off posting there.

I also expect there's a massive context to that story Vivienne that you're missing out. Also 'They' were a few posters on a chatboard, not the whole Feminism movement, not all the regulars on that board and not all feminist MNet posters.

I am slightly confused at the way the term 'academic' is being used here.

I know the thread you mean, viv, and (if we're thinking of the same discussion), it wasn't remotely academic. So far as I know there is no academic theory about walking your DD home at night.

People might just be disagreeing with you.