about the feminism/WR area?

[fleacircus]

I don't like dogs, and I think most television is irredeemably stupid drivel and that there's no excuse for anyone with an actual life of their own to watch 'Made in Chelsea', and although I like knitting I don't really get the point of scrap-booking. Those are my opinions, and I'm entitled to hold them, and I would construct arguments to support them if pushed, but I don't go onto the TV thread and find people who like 'Made in Chelsea' and then go on about how wrong they are and when they get angry keep saying 'you just can't take it that other people don't share your opinions' until they get bored and give up on the thread altogether.

And I've got all the kids I want, thank you very much, so I'm not TTC, and I was lucky to conceive my kids in a very straightforward manner, so I don't actually know anything about how it feels not to, and I don't have any useful advice or insights for those who are TTC, and I don't have any medical expertise about TTC, so I've set my MN preferences not to display those threads.

So why is it that people who clearly have no interest in feminism or women's rights, and no knowledge of the often complex political, social and personal ideas being explored, and don't actually hope to learn anything or contribute anything of any value, hang around that area spoiling for a fight? Because there's a whole section of MN dedicated to expressing your opinions. It's this one. There's a question mark in the title and everything.

Or AIBU?

P&G - Proctor and Gamble, purveyors of fine household cleaning products, the advertisements of which consistently awards 'mummy' the sole responsibility for fighting the good fight against dirt and slatternliness in the home.

Really Pan?
Must be why I didn't get the reference, I have a filter for that sort of nonsense. Obviously didn't get through.
Or I don't watch the right sort of girlie TV?

favoritethings Don't go because of what I said. I don't post in FWR much (but read it lots) and speak for no one except myself. I stand by what I said, though and think your post confirms my point.

There is a lot of distrust on the board. Perhaps understandably so. Off putting though.

Have you been on there recently? The feminist pub and chat thread are very welcoming. I suspect lots of posters are thinking about 1 thread they saw.

I probably went on there about 2 months ago. It was probably a rape thread? Not sure. Sometimes or often I start posting, and notice which board I am on at a later time. I actually thought this was the feminism board, until I scrolled back up and had a relook.

I think my post very carefully made the point that it was only some feminists (a small but aggressive minority) and only in one specific way. They try to define men as a powerful 'other' and, for that reason, have no sympathy for them as people. For instance, in rape threads, there is a strong minority voice basically saying women don't make false allegations ergo we need a different burden of proof for this crime. If you point out that it would be impossible for a man to defend himself under this, the point is overwhelmed by posters saying it does not really matter if a few innocent men go to jail. If you point out that women now outnumber men 5:4 in entry to university, this is considered an irrelevance.

And all antisemites do not want to kill all Jews or rule the world. As someone of Jewish blood but not obviously Jewish, I have my whole life observed slight prejudice from many (and plenty who, if challenged, tell of their Jewish friends. It can be the belief that the u.s always supports Israel because Hollywood is 'run by Jews' or someone using the expression 'he jewed me' instead of cheated me. Or talk of powerful 'Jewish' banks like goldmans. The concept of Jews being a secret power cabal allows people harsh views because they perceive it as addressing an injustice.

I am actually pro 80% of what I read on the fwr boards but think the other 20% is based on a perceived power dynamic which no longer functions in the west. And once you perceive people as 'other' especially when that 'other' includes secret self favour, then it is easy to take the next step to believing that they no longer deserve the same fair treatment as you do.

Sorry for essay... And on phone so prob reads horribly.

I am perplexed Larry that you are basically complaining that you disagree with a minority of posters?

I see others on other boards saying views that I think are really objectionable e.g. about people on benefits. But I know that people are entitled to have different opinions from me.

Um ... no, sorry, I am that more confusing that your original posts.

Please don't start defending anti-semites. Sure, they may not all explicitly want to kill Jewish people, but let's perhaps accent they're not ok, right?!

I seriously find it hard to believe you would say that 20% of anti-seminism was ok. So how is 20% of misogyny ok?

I am finding* that more confusing.

Grennie,

Seriously? If there was a board which was 20% racist or 20% homophobic, and the 20% were aggressive and regular, would you think that was right?

larry, do you think that pointing out prejudice against women is the same as pointing out Jewish conspiracies against Nazis? Or the same as white supremacist arguments?

Or is it that you think feminism is genuinely like white supremacy or antisemintism, in that women have historically had the power and now they're going OTT?

Lrd.

I might have missed the odd punctuation mark but you have completely misread my post. You need to re read it.

Often when feminists talk about men, they don't mean all individual men.They are engaging in a class analysis. This is not anti men.

I've re-read it, larry. I've read it many times.

Perhaps you need to answer the question?

Btw, I never noticed what your punctuation was doing but if you mean to imply that I've misread because I misunderstood punctuation, I think that is rather a low blow. You know perfectly well I'm dyslexic, and you could I'm sure explain yourself, and everyone else will understand if I've made a total idiot of myself misreading.

Lrd,

How on earth would I know you were dyslexic?! It is not in the least apparent. I meant that I might have been cleare had I not been writing on my phone but I thought my point was reasonably clear.

What was the question you wanted answering? Given that I am Jewish, I would hardly be defending anti Semites. And I never mentioned nazis or nazism. Just common or garden low level anti semitism.

Grennie,

I find what you term 'class analysis' to be a kind of excuse. Would it ever be acceptable to say 'gays do x' or 'blacks think y' and term it 'class analysis'?

Oh, fair enough larry. I remember the conversation we had about it quite well, but I do accept you've forgotten. To be honest I thought that was a pointed comment you made, but am glad to know you're now saying it isn't.

I suggested that you might answer why you compared feminists to anti semites. Why did you?

As you perhaps will understand (and this is now the third post I've made about it), there is a well-known internet phenomenon, where it is known that referring to anti-seminism in some contexts is done in order to be emotive. I thought that - even if you did it ignorantly - that was what your comparison did.

You must understand, this isn't me saying you are deliberately being rude or ignorant. It is just that, once you start to think about the comparisons, it is only possible to make them if you are ignorant or misogynistic, which is why we examine them.

So, the question is - do you really mean to imply that feminists have the same instititionalised power as anti-semites, or was it just a knee-jerk emotive comparison you made without thinking through it?

And all antisemites do not want to kill all Jews or rule the world. As someone of Jewish blood but not obviously Jewish, I have my whole life observed slight prejudice from many (and plenty who, if challenged, tell of their Jewish friends. It can be the belief that the u.s always supports Israel because Hollywood is 'run by Jews' or someone using the expression 'he jewed me' instead of cheated me.

Not meaning to pull things out of context but this part struck me - As women, many of us see that dynamic played out all the time when it comes to misogyny.

Antisemitism manifests itself in relatively mild and subtle ways as well as in murderous hatred.

But I (not Jewish) wouldn't dream of telling Jewish people that antisemitism is gone, the world has changed in the last 50 years so stop going on about it, you are oversensitive, looking to be offended, and explain how to fight antisemitism the right way - and all the rest of it. But people do say that to feminists all the time.

if you are a feminist, you're a feminist. IMVHO. Just because you have online humdingers on just how relevant these mild and subtle forms of misogyny play out means sfa. If everyone is basically on the one side you can agree on one issue and disagree on another.

Well said, sal. I agree.

"They try to define men as a powerful 'other' and, for that reason, have no sympathy for them as people."

Which posters? AFAIK everyone on that board has men in their lives whom they know and value as people, be it their partners, lovers, fathers, sons, brothers, colleagues, friends etc. That's just a prejudiced assertion isn't it Larry, not based on anything except your own negative reading of people's postings.

And never once have I read anyone saying it doesn't matter if innocent men go to jail for rape they haven't committed. The charitable view is that you're so locked in your prejudice that this is your interpretation of what the regular posters whom you disagree with most, think about things, while the uncharitable view would be that you want other people to believe that regular posters think that so you're saying it knowing full well that it's not an accurate representation of anyone's opinion - not even the invented 20%.

Well now there's a thing.

I've never seen a poster arguing for a different burden of proof in rape cases, nor have I ever seen anyone claiming there are no false allegations of rape. I've seen posters campaigning for a presumption of belief in a woman who reports rape and I've seen posters quoting accurate figures of the actual (miniscule) number of false allegations.

But y'know, I'm not on MNet all the time so just because I've never seen the posts you describe, counts for nothing. But if I'd seen posts like that, I'd have probably challenged them, just like I've challenged posters who argue for men's rights to use lapdancing clubs as corporate entertainment, or buy sex, or use gonzo porn. It's really easy to challenge posts that advance ridiculous arguments or which make false claims.

I just don't see where the difficulty lies?

Bloody good point SinisterSal.

Larry - we talk about white people being racist for example. Without the ability to make a class analysis, you can not have a political analysis. And feminism is political.