To agree with workfare in principal?

[IAmMiranda]

Donning my flame retardant underwear - though note I'm not for the current scheme, but the principal is sensible.

Working for unemployment benefits makes sense to me - provided that the "wage" is fair for the hours and skills. Eg. £90 a week job sellers could equal 15 hours of charity work?

Taking into account disabilities, childcare and other responsibilities I really don't think its unfair to provide people with jobs to earn the equivalent of benefits?

I do think its wrong to line the pockets of corporations, reduce jobs for other workers etc but surely charity work is an option?

I think I've probably missed some huge glaring point but AIBU?

(NOTE: I have previously been in reciept of JSA and would happily have done 15 hours a week and had plenty of time to job search)

I'm not sure how you would know how many people have rape babies or who have been sexually abused really, why would they share it with you?

Because I know their husbands and their children?

It figures in this conversation because people have said "people shouldn't have children they can't afford" which in reality is most people but also you cannot ignore the influence of sexual abuse and other factors. That's the one I'm personally bothered about, obviously because it is my personal situation.

Offred An 18 year old needs 3 years of £9k student loans and grants for living costs...

which is much cheaper than a family of 5.

But why would people share things like that with you?

Especially when you have the attitudes you do...

Is it?

On my sums, based on my circs it isn't.

Apart from anything else, the tax credits I'm soon to receive are many thousands less than the annual tax my recently ex husband pays.

upthread you said 56k was not enough per year for your family and you needed state support.

so now you have very low expenses?

Of course it is cheaper to put an 18 year old through Uni then a mother of 4.

I will be going to Uni in a couple of years and I will have to claim benefits for my 3 kids left at home. That will equate to approx. £18,000 if you include HB.
DD1 is going next year and she will get about £7,000 in bursaries, loans to survive on. She has no dependants so not entitled to tax credits or child benefit. Yes she will get a student loan but she will pay that back after she starts earning

handcream People come onto threads saying they dont mind paying extra tax for the thing they feel most important to them and then you find that they arent working. There is nothing to stop anyone sending cheques to the Inland Revenue without being forced to - no I didnt think so...

A few years ago now, I got my first job after leaving college. I spent the entire duration of it (it was agency temping) on an emergency tax code. I deliberately chose not to reclaim my overpaid tax (over £600), because I was grateful to the government of the day (Labour) for their provision of services that had allowed me to get to that point, such as IS and HB for under-25s, which meant I could leave an abusive family situation.

I still don't regret it. I wouldn't necessarily do it now, mind, under this government. I'd prob claim it back and donate it to the local food bank or something. Incidentally, it's looking like my husband and I may be both employed shortly, as opposed to both unemployed, so I guess we'll be getting to prove you wrong about how actual tax payers don't want to pay more for anything.

Our socialism never switched off when we found employment before, so I doubt it will now.

Seriously, Offred, I am not unsympathetic to women who have been raped. I simply disagree that there are large numbers of women who have children conceived from rape. Can you see the difference?

No, I said that it was difficult for us to manage on £56k (tax burden on that single income is massive) and I am aware that we live in a relatively cheap house in the north so don't have the confidence you do that no-one on £56k needs state support.

There was no way I could have worked for example because of the lack of help with childcare.

I don't get most of my income from benefits is why it is not as expensive.

Dahlen, not all of us live in ivory towers. My own circumstances are far from ideal and the charity I work for, works with young people. I'm involved with young people from all walks of life, but we focus on those from disadvantaged backgrounds.

You hit the nail on the head with narrow horizons. All kids in the UK have access to education that is free (at the point of delivery). However, there are so many who don't perceive it as important and who come from families where very little value is placed on education. These kids are not necessarily lacking opportunity but the encouragement to seize the opportunity that is sitting right in front of them. So, you ask yourself why? Why is it that they don't grab this chance and sadly the answer is that in many cases it is because there is no incentive. In many cases, there is no incentive to get a job and work, because you can get by without doing that.

Its funny Offred that you bring out all these stats to back your argument that most pregnacies are unplanned and a sizeable percentage of men are abusive or rapists.

When people say they dont know anyone who was in this situation you claim they wouldnt tell anyone. Well how can the stats be correct then if all these people arent telling.....

You seen to indicate that YOUR friends told you but the rest of us are hiding the fact that we had situations like you. Well, we didnt.....

I am keen to give women enpowerment, to say you are complete with or without a man. You can achieve anything you like but please stop making poor choices. If you do this is what will happen.... If those consequences arent great then surely it will stop you making those poor choices.

Where have I said a sizeable number of men are rapists?

Obviously having had a similar experience it is more likely I would be drawn to people with similar experiences and that we would share those experiences with each other.

I would avoid you like the plague because I'd find your views horribly upsetting. If I had to have something to do with you there is no way I would share that experience with you.

Clearly and obviously our experiences would be skewed.

Which of my views do you find upsetting?

That people should be punished for having children they can't afford and that there is nothing wrong in principle with forcing people to work for free.

Did anyone else see the newspaper articles about how a woman left money to the government in her will, and the Cabinet divided it among themselves instead of putting it in the budget for anything?

Apparently people choosing to leave their estate to the country "isn't uncommon".

And being honest it isn't people but women who you and handcream think should be punished isn't it?

So, Offred - you had 4 children and want 'help' with childcare. Well, we had children presuming that we wouldnt get any 'help'. That I think is the difference. There are lots of benefit claimiants making choices and then putting their hand out for 'help'.

I had 2 children because tbh - I couldnt afford to have any more. We had plans and we would not have been able to fund what we wanted to do if we had more. Would it have been nice to have another little person around - of course. But we stopped at 2.

Wait, I should be punished? For what?

Where have I suggested that anyone should be forced to work for free, or that people should be punished for having children?

You seem unhinged.

They arent working for FREE. They are claiming benefits and not giving anything in return.

Women who have children they cannot afford are not being 'punished'. They are supported, not judged and given benefits.

You hit the nail on the head with narrow horizons. All kids in the UK have access to education that is free (at the point of delivery). However, there are so many who don't perceive it as important and who come from families where very little value is placed on education. These kids are not necessarily lacking opportunity but the encouragement to seize the opportunity that is sitting right in front of them. So, you ask yourself why? Why is it that they don't grab this chance and sadly the answer is that in many cases it is because there is no incentive. In many cases, there is no incentive to get a job and work, because you can get by without doing that.

Exactly - poor aspirations. You don't improve aspirations by simply sanctioning non-compliance though. If it were that simple, prison would work every time and we know that it doesn't. I don't have a problem with imposing sanctions on people who really can't be arsed (although how do you know which is which?), but unless it is counterbalanced by carrot as well as stick, it is simply punishment.

One thing I have learned, for example, is that the amount of domestic abuse and child abuse in our so-called underclass is absolutely shocking. Where it the money to tackle that? That would make a huge difference to the aspirations of young people who are being told they are worth nothing almost from birth - particularly if they are female - but the one thing they can do (often misguidedly) is produce another child, which they think can be loved and make up for the past and for which they receive money.

Like I say, you need carrot AND stick. I see only stick.

Of course this all conveniently misses the point that the overwhelming proportion of the welfare bill is paid in pensions and housing benefit.

So if you had unexpectedly conceived twins what would you have done?

Nice for you in your tower of smug isn't it?

Why on earth do you think it is acceptable to keep abusing me for having four children?

My first child was born in a relationship where I was not able to access contraceptives and I was being abused, the second child was the result of overt rape when I refused to do sexual acts he had previously coerced.

My third pregnancy was planned and I naturally conceived twins. How much control have I had over my fertility? You can bang on about my situation being rare, that is invalid when you are now personally abusing me for my "poor choices".