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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

..to be really annoyed abt male 'friend' making rape jokes to tease me? (triggar warning)

75 replies

wheeler · 24/09/2013 21:07

[again, triggar warning, some explicit and not nice comments abt rape]

this morning a local male friend of me and DP dropped by our house (we both work at home) for a quick tea with DP. i haven't seen him for a few weeks and i dipped in and out of the convo, but was trying to work!

we often all talk abt politics broadly, what's in news, party politics etc. i think maybe he felt like he wasn't getting enough of my attention and he started on the women's equality chestnut. this often leads nowhere, i just bite my tongue. so he upgraded, as he's done once before, to rape and had a rant abt rape as 'basically a mating/dating strategy', an innate male urge, survival of the fittest claptrap, the male of any species, and anyway it's what women want, look how some of them dress etc.

it's horrible, nasty, totally unthoughtful, and also what really annoys me is that we both know - don't we - that the point of this so-called argument is to make a kind of excuse for rape. it's kind of saying it's an inevitable product of a primeval urge right?...

thing is, he's kind of grinning when he says it, and i think he does this cos i have a connection to women's rights stuff (activist, when i have time!) and i think that's exactly why he's doing it. i doubt he'd either dare or even bother to say it to another woman friend.

today - it really upset me, i rose to it, tried to give him rational reasons as to why he was wrong and in seconds i felt like......i just gave you what you wanted, you upset me, you provoked me, and now i feel like i'm 15 and dealing with nasty boys at school. worse, you don't even actually care abt this issue at all.

this guy has a DS and a DD. he knows other political stuff, like party politics, pretty well, but knows very little abt sexual violence, as in incidence rates, why women don't report it, consequences etc. and, he doesn't even know me well so why does he think it's ok to say that to me?

or - the AIBU bit - am i just 'political correctness gone mad' man, take a joke, lighten up, heck use the opp to change his mind...?

i usually like this guy, and i do like his DP and kids. what i feel tonight is, i don't want to see him for quite a while. he makes me sick.

OP posts:
Original poster
wheeler · 24/09/2013 22:14

bluecheque - i wondered abt doing that, in a problem-solving way. he's a funny guy, a mix of caring, helpful, lefty, unusual stay-at-home-dad actually whose DP does the full time job; and then this weird provocative basically childish side, i'll say this cos i know i shdn't maybe...??
[terrible question - is he a bit of a macho/misogynist cos he feels emasculated in his caring role?]

and as i said he has 2 DC. shdn't i try and make him understand that this stuff matters...

i think he knew when he left, cos i'd stopped talking to him altogether (was actually a bit shocked/emotional) and didn't say goodbye.

writing the damn thing tho. it's still onus on me isn't it.... i hope he's as bothered abt it this evening as i am...

OP posts:
YoureBeingADick · 24/09/2013 22:20

" how he'd feel if his mum, sister, wife or daughter was the woman involved."

slight tangent but this has always bothered me. I have seen it countless times being advised to ask them how they'd feel if it was their wife/daughter/sister/mother and while I completely understand why it is advised. what I don't get is why it is only their female relatives they should think of. I think we should be encouraging them to think how they'd feel if it was their son. firstly for the shock tactic that they most likely wont have heard that one before, secondly because it removes that whole aspect of women being something other than men (if that makes sense?) what I mean is the type of man who trots out that bullshit, most likely views women as 'other' than men, different species, should expect that sort of treatment etc, but if you say to one of them "how would you feel if that was your son" they're probably going to recoil in horror at the thought- which is exactly the reaction they should be having at the thought of it happening to any person, male or female, but it's not happening. it needs to. sorry if i'm not describing that very well at all, I just felt I needed to say that. don't mean to hijack.

Original poster
wheeler · 24/09/2013 22:29

youbeingadick - am also ambivalent abt what if yr daughter (altho that is what i said last time) cos of it asking him to care for his small circle of women but not women in general. it's also wide open to more victim-blaming denial stuff like 'my daughter wldn't be there...'

he makes me think abt how some men are really defensive abt all kinds of areas of women's equality. cos when i put the sexual harassment/violence thing to him, abt women/girls learning from early age to plan safe journeys etc, he just said, 'yeah well that's true for loads of boys-men in rough parts of town...'. he reacts immediately to any women's equality claim, with denial. it really challenges some men. it's interesting. i wish they'd explore it more. but if i were saying david cameron was sexist (my friend is a lefty) he'd be up for that. when it suits...

OP posts:
YoureBeingADick · 24/09/2013 22:33

yes excellent points. you are right, it encourages the "but not YOU, i'm not talking about YOU when I say girls wearing shorts skirts are asking for it. your skirt is different because I know you" Hmm

your friend seems to hold opinions without really knowing why he does. very frustrating but there will always be those types. I couldn't tolerate in my home.

LovesBeingOnHoliday · 24/09/2013 22:34

Your dp needs to understand he has given permission to his crittin of a 'friend' that talking to you like this is ok, it allowed. He has done it before and now he's done it again, what if this were to lead to he trying it on, after all he thinks your dp agrees with him.

LovesBeingOnHoliday · 24/09/2013 22:37

The more I think of it tge madder I get, he sat in your house and basically told you rape was ok in front of your dp who said nothing.

WafflyVersatile · 24/09/2013 22:38

I think the 'what about your son' bit is an excellent point.

Fairenuff · 24/09/2013 22:43

I think you should end this 'friendship'. The man sounds horrible. At best, he wants to annoy you.

Don't allow him in your house again. And don't allow your children to be around him. If he asks why tell him that he made his opinions on rape very clear and you consider him to be a risk.

Ev1lEdna · 24/09/2013 22:48

I honestly couldn't be friends with someone who spoke like that to me. I don't usually do the knee-jerk reaction to a thread but this really bothered me. What does he really want from you when he does this? Bizarre and unacceptable.

Ev1lEdna · 24/09/2013 22:49

Just to add if DP sat and let him I'd be pretty angry with him too.

ApocalypseThen · 24/09/2013 23:04

I'm sorry to say this, but your friend is an utter pig. Certainly I would decline to be alone with him, or allow my kids any unsupervised contact with him in the future.

And if your husband thinks the "massive bants" excuse is acceptable, he's as bad.

AnyFucker · 24/09/2013 23:12

I quite often use the "would you be ok for your son to have every orifice penetrated/suck disgusting men off for money/have to develop a serious drug habit to get through the next trick/say goodbye to their tender sphincters" etc when challenging men like this on their misogyny

They don't half splutter, it's quite amusing to witness.

YoureBeingADick · 24/09/2013 23:20

do you know I am not in the least bit surprised to learn that you do that AF Grin

I have to say I really don't seem to come across people who are ballsy enough to come out with that shite, at least within my hearing, but the next time someone does I will be using the 'son' line of questioning.

AnyFucker · 24/09/2013 23:27

It's easier to do it when hiding behind a pc screen of course, but then so it was for the men making comments in the first place Smile

It works in RL too when said with a smile and "friendly" eye contact.

StuntGirl · 25/09/2013 00:16

Ahh AF, I do love your style Grin

MyNameIsInigoMontoya · 25/09/2013 00:28

I've never used "what if it was your son", but I have used "what if it was you?" to good effect before.

They do tend to splutter a bit, starting with feeble attempts to say "oh but that can't happen.. oh hang on...", sometimes moving through an attempt at explaining why "that's different" (but without coming up with any actual reasons), before sort of grinding to a halt... Grin

bluecheque4595 · 25/09/2013 00:34

Wheeler, he could be kicking against his New Man ways or could just be trying to be provocative cos he knows it winds you up.. my Dad and my male friend do this sort of thing, and it does wind me up something chronic but I hardly ever rise to it. Its a hiding to nothing with my Dad but I did think it was worthwhile writing to my friend about how upsetting his "jokes" were. You know your male friend better than all the "leave the bastard" crowd on Mumsnet, you know if his good points outweigh the bad and if it is worth trying to "solve" is problem.

another line you oculd take could be "how would your mum/wife/friends feel about you making that joke?" That puts it back on him and stops it being all about your reaction.

ManifestoMT · 25/09/2013 01:06

I think it's because he fancies the arse off you.
He does it because he wants a reaction from you and for him to be 100 per cent of your focus at the time. He has learnt the only way to get your attention is to say something inflammatory and dangerous to see you react and focus on him.

And your dh knows this.

I have a degree in cod psychology so I knows these things.

Taps nose and nods.

It's what 6 formers used to do in my day

tallwivglasses · 25/09/2013 01:22

I think he does it because he hates women. I've met lots of lefty-liberals like him. I feel sorry for his wife and kids.

Fairenuff · 25/09/2013 08:18

It's the grown up version of pigtail pulling Manifesto.

Except it's downright disgusting to use that subject as a way of getting attention.

And why should women 'not rise to it'. He should be taken to task. If he is doing it for attention, all the more reason to not see him anymore. That would be more satisfying and, as a bonus, you wouldn't have to waste any more time with this twunt.

I think if he said those things to me I would give him a really sad, resigned look and say "I'm disappointed that you feel that way". Then leave the room and have nothing more to do with him.

hackmum · 25/09/2013 08:23

I get so irritated by people who come out with absolutely vile things and then say, "I was just winding you up." They don't even have the courage of their own misogynistic convictions. If you don't really believe that rape is an evolutionary "dating/mating strategy", why say it?

What else does he come out with? Does he tell his black friends, "Black people are intellectually inferior" - "Oh, don't get angry, I was just winding you up." I bet he doesn't.

Catsize · 25/09/2013 08:32

Yep, he is neanderthal. I like the turning of tables to you/your son. Will try to remember that.
Some of the comments upthread are reminiscent of the 45min vitriolic homophobic rant I was once subjected to by a 'friend' (as he sacked me as his son's godmother)...
'I hate gay people but you're okay', and 'my son won't be gay as we are bringing him up right'. Sometimes I think this type of person (I use that term loosely) is just too thick and impenetrable (as it were).

whois · 25/09/2013 08:35

He is clearly a twat who wanted your strention. Ugh.

Can you send him text or call him, say something along the lines of "I enjoy your company, but your behaviour in my good yesterday was disgusting. I found your rape apologist comments both highly offensive and very upsetting. Men who believe rape is part of the martial order of the world have no place in my life. While you hold these views you are not welcome in my house, and we won't be meeting socially."

Your DH also behaved quite badly. I would tell him talking like that is not acceptable in your view, and he needs to apologies to you and assert that he will step in and tell his friend to STFU next time.

olgaga · 25/09/2013 08:47

Gobsmacked at this. Trivialising rape and is unacceptable in any circumstances.

And your DP just sits there silently and listens while this friend "winds you up"?

Forget about the friend - easy enough surely to tell him you find his attitude and behaviour and unacceptable and you no longer want to associate with him, let alone have him in your home.

Your DP however - his attitude stinks. It's bad enough that he has nothing to say on the subject. I'd be more angry at the way he's happy to ignore your feelings.

sparklekitty · 25/09/2013 08:50

I have an 'friend' who also thinks rape jokes are funny. I know he does it for a reaction/ rise. I used to ignore then one day I snapped and described my rape to him in graphic detail. That shut him up!

If I were you my stock answer would be something along the lines of 'well you can congratulate the man on his primal urge if your DD ever gets raped, oh and don't forget to tell her it's ok coz it's either that he can't help it or you're dressed in the wrong way'

Something similar each time, with a smile if you can manage it, he'll soon shut up!