Are we an amoral nation?

[AdventureTed]

How did we get to the point where authorities turn a blind eye to female genital mutilation and forced marriage?

Why did it take so long for them to take action against grooming gangs, and celebrity pervs like Jimmy Saville?

Have we lost all sense of right and wrong, and if we have, did we ever have much morality in the first place?

1. they don't - forced marriage and FMG is very high up on the safeguarding agenda

1. because adult survivors didn't come forward until recently

1. No

I would also add that, in a patriarchal society, the rights of women and girls will never be the priority

In some ways yes. I'm not quite sure how it happened but a combination of government and media has conspired to turn us into a nation where no one looks out for anyone else, and we are all just out for ourselves and no one really cares who they trample in the pursuit of their own "happiness"

Society definitely seems to be going backwards in terms of how women are perceived. Many young women won't leave their homes now unless they've dyed and straightened their hair and are wearing the correct labels and latest "It" bag.

I saw one girl who'd trowelled on so much fake tan her face looked like an orange with big false eyelashes stuck on it. This is fine of course, unless she's been brainwashed by society to feel too ugly to be seen without this polyfilla type mask.

Advertising and the media obviously have a lot to do with making women feel they don't look good enough, but where are the strong female role models who don't feel the need to conform, and who is sticking up for them?

Many people assumed KD Lang was gay because she does not dress up like Cheryl Cole and Beyonce!

The trend is for humanity to get better. Statistically we are way way less likely to be killed by another human than at any other time in our history.

I thought people thought kd lang was gay because she is, in fact, gay.

I'm not sure that the use of make up and hair straighteners is any reflection on morals.

Women can vote. We've had a female PM. There's no slavery anymore. The numbers of women in senior positions is going up. Violence is going down according to police. We are actually taking action against perves, whereas it used to be part of the culture. People actually care about male and female mutilation and forced marriages now.

1. They've always turned a blind eye to female genital mutilation and forced marriage. It's just that we now talk about it, and it's recognised in the media a lot more, which is a good thing because now something can be done about it.

1. Grooming and child abuse has always gone on and a lot of people have always turned a blind eye to it. Now we talk about it, now it's in the media and now things are beginning to be done about it. We are at the cusp of all these perverts goings on, there will be a lot more of this shit to come out in the future. But now we talk about it, now things are being done about it. That's a good thing.

1. No, see above.

Yes I think as a society and as individuals we are increasingly amoral.

Incidentally gordylovessheep your answer no 2 is not correct: victims did come forward at the time and were basically told to go away. We could have had this all done and dusted with in the seventies but there was a culture at the BBC of 'this is just what those dippy presenter types do.

Smoorikins - sorry, I meant K T Tunstall.

I think society generally is heading the right way. Domestic violence is now legislated against. Sexual abuse that wasn't taken seriously in the 70's is now the subject of high profile court cases.

The sexualisation of children, primarily Imo due to heightened awareness due to the internet is a big issue, however.

Lol at KD Lang.

We've always been amoral. We're humans. Morality is a construct. We're here to fuck, eat and fight, and any morality we display is a thin veneer that could crack at any moment.

I'm just amazed we manage to keep a lid on our urges as much as we actually do.

Homosexuals can marry now. Landmines are banned. Jimmy Tarbuck is rarely seen. Hunting is finished. Life is getting better.

So would you like to go back to the "morals"that said a woman who had a child outside marriage was a slut and her child a bastard?

I don't think we are an amoral nation, re: FGM and forced marriage I think we have previously stood back out of fear of offending other cultures and their practices. It's the same premise when schools have banned 3 little pigs story books but now we seem to have more confidence to declare different cultural practices like FGM are wrong, period, and if you are caught perpetrating in this barbaric practice then you will be prosecuted

Grooming gangs got away with abuse because of authorities not believing it existed due to the male perpetrators being from a different culture. That people like Jimmy Saville evaded prosecution for years of abuse was also down to the philosophy of the day that somehow rape and abuse victims were to blame, we've come a bit of a way since then in securing rape convictions and changing the mentality of investigating officers.

To me amorality is letting something happen or continue because you just don't care one way or the other about the outcome, but both of the above happened due to very clouded judgement by certain authorities

Morality and altruism will always co-exist with amorality and selfishness it's the way of all species

Perceptions of morality/immorality evolve over time.

In recent decades it has become illegal to discriminate against anyone on the basis of their race, sex or disability. Employment rights have improved, especially for women who now have better maternity provision than in most other countries.

Everyone is entitled to education and healthcare. Whilst child poverty still exists, children are not dying on the streets from starvation and exposure as they were in Victorian times and before.

Some might argue that the breakdown in 'family values' (ie high divorce rate, children raised in single parent families) is evidence of a decline in morality, but it is obviously more complicated than that. For instance, in previous times, women may have been forced to remain in an abusive marriage because they had no other options.

The perpetrators of child abuse are being successfully prosecuted because there is a greater willingness to take action against them, which in turn probably makes it easier for survivors to come forward.

Violence in society has progressively decreased, ranging from the banning of corporal punishment in schools to the decline in murder and violent crime.

Whilst I would agree that we are still a patriarchal society, attitudes towards and opportunities available for women have improved tremendously over the last 100 years.

So in conclusion, no, we are not an immoral nation, though there is plenty of room for improvement.

Smoorikins - sorry, I meant K T Tunstall

LMAO at KD Lang.

Pumpkin - I always mix their names up. I think it's because Constant Craving and Suddenly I See both drive me crackers.

1. No - fgm and forced marriages are very much a concern. Stopping them however is easier said than done given it's a very secretive thing. Nobody runs around telling the wider community what they're planning so it's often only caught after the event

2. Jimmy Saville - clearly this was hushed up big time throughout his entire career. People like Janet Street Porter have openly admitted they knew and said nothing. It was only when adults who has experienced it came forward that it was investigated

3. no we're not. We're more moral than we ever have been historically. Less religiously moral certainly but more moral nonetheless. Less than 100 years ago even. The things that were done to people in Britain because it was thought right are truly shocking. The same can be said of many many countries worldwide.

YABU. Not that you asked, but you are.

We are not an amoral society at all. You have to look at where we have come from. It wasn't that long ago that society in Britain looked very very different. Of course it's better now than it ever was, for everyone, including women.

This orange looking girl that you saw made a personal choice. What makes you think that she feels forced by society to look like an orange? Could it possibly be that she likes using products that make her look like that and she likes the look it creates?

Loads of women don't wear make up. If we were a society that brainwashed women into feeling ugly without polyfilla type make up, then everyone would look orange.

It depends on your definition of "amoral". I don't agree with your examples, with the first one the police and child protection workers are desperately trying to stop this barbaric practice and will prosecute anyone they can. With regards to the second one, we are now trying to do our best to right those wrongs and hopefully people will realise that their claims will be taken seriously if they come forward. However, we sell arms to countries and governments who will use them against their own people (and ourselves if it comes to it), we allow people to starve to death in poverty and in old age etc, etc.

Brokensunglasses - loads of young women now base their worth upon their looks, and think they look unacceptable to society unless they pile on the slap.

That's what I object to.

Women have been doing that for centuries, it's part of a heteronormative patriarchal society. They way it's been done has changed, but the underlying pressure to be valued on looks is centuries old. Calling those women amoral doesn't help. And it's a planet away from genital mutilation, forced marriage, pedophilia, and the continued existence of slavery and free labour that many in the system use/require for it function.

We as a society (not a nation) have always been good at ignoring the wider systems and picking at the morals of others at the edges while ignoring it. While we live in times of greater peace than ever and greater freedoms for most, the systems that have been built over the centuries can be seen to be as powerful as ever and they are quite amoral. The amoral systems needs to be taken apart and new functions built to get rid of the core of the problem that the headline flailing of moral issues tend to cover up. Dividing the people at the bottom over makeup ignores where the problem of morals really lies.

Spork - I'm not calling make-up wearers amoral. I'm saying we should be creating a society where women don't immediately get guffawed at on Britain's Got Talent if they look like Susan Boyle.

AdventureTed, there is a difference between being a moral society and individuals relying on make-up to make them feel good about themselves.

Make-up is not new, and nor is it confined to western civilization - tribal communities also paint their faces.

IMO Make-up is not a moral issue. Moral issues are being dealt with well in our society.

If you want to judge societies for being amoral, look at Saudi Arabia which is a deeply sexist society, and the UAE where women have been arrested for adultery because they have been raped.

Our society is not perfectly moral, there is work to be done, but it is certainly not getting worse.