Am I being unreasonable to confront this woman?

[justanuthermanicmumsday]

for those of you who don't know I wear a face veil usually a patterned scarf to avoid sticking out so much lol. point is I expect the odd comments maybe groans as I work past in my honour of course.

But two times now this senior lady I'd say in her 60s or more unprovoked loudly made comments at me. The first time she said" why are you wearing that" I was walking past with my twin buggy to supermarket, I thght she was incredibly rude. Had she said excuse me and proceeded to ask me a question in a normal tone I wouldn't have been miffed. Still I kept my cool said religious reasons as I walked away. I didn't want a conversation I don't see why I should explain when she was so rude.

yet today I see her again shouting across the road at me this time." No need to wear that take it off". Today I would say she looked aggressive or perhaps it was my eyes deceiving me. My toddler was with me she looked distressed said" mummy whys that lady shouting". I said "she's prob ill like your gran never mind her."

Should I confront her if this happens again? I'm not an aggressive person quite a walkover and not much confidence but I think it can't be ignored its like harassment.

I dread to think ill pass her again if I pop out she's always on the same route as me, yet why should I dread her.

Granted she doesn't like my dress neither does my brother, I'm not harming her in anyway. one sibling said I shouldn't confront her in case she goes to the police. But that's insane what reason would she have to go to the police i would simply tell her to get off my case. How would she like it if I told her to change her dress for something more acceptable to me. She's not the fashion police or the law.

Please remember this is not a conversation on whether you approve of my dress rather this woman's behaviour

[ophelia275]

I would just be honest and answer "I don't know" if my child asked me why some women cover up.

The "vampires day out" did make me chuckle though (yes, I know it's not pc...).

[wannaBe]

"One wonders how blind people manage communication, after all they can't see anyone's facial expression."

Interesting because before I read that post I was going to reply in similar manner. I am blind and thus cannot read people's facial expression. I am told that my communication skills are one of my greatest strengths.

perception is everything; listen to someone's voice; their inflection; tone; manner; it's really not that hard. Presumably people manage to speak well enough on the phone where you don't have face to face interaction? Or do you find this difficult?

[TakingThePea]

Well said wannaBe and Dione

[KittensoftPuppydog]

Yes, people can communicate without seeing the face, but I often makes it harder. Ask my husband who has to rely on lip reading.

[Fecklessdizzy]

I hate the idea that some women feel they have to totally cover themselves up as if their faces and bodies were somehow offensive.

I hate the idea that some women dye themselves orange and chop themselves around to be more attractive to men.

Thing is, it's sod all to do with me. If they do what they do of their own accord then it's their choice and I don't get to shout at them in the street about it!

[KittensoftPuppydog]

All that is a bit of a side track. Many people find the veil offensive because it treats women as nothing more than a sticky sweet that attracts flies (men).
This image has actually been used to promote veiling.

[Quangle]

Don't you get annoyed if you let someone go in front of you in the queue or let them cross the road or whatever and they ignore you? Or if you are serving in a shop and the customer doesn't take their headphones off to engage with you while they are paying? These are the things we teach our children to do - to engage socially in the public space appropriately. This is what oils the wheels of public space - we are all different people trying to get along and we have social norms so that we can do so peaceably. When people transgress those social rules by not saying please and thank you or by not acknowledging another's actions, it is a small piece of damage to the civic society we rely upon.

They haven't come about by accident, these social norms. They are there for good reason and that's why we go on at our children all this stuff. Deliberately absenting yourself from these interactions is going to alienate people.

As for the women issue, I don't like to see women dressed in a Miley Cyrus fashion nor do I like to see women dressed in the veil. In my opinion, in both cases, it's oppression dressed up as freedom. Funny how men don't seem to need to use their freedom of choice to cover their faces in a public space.

And re being blind, yes, it is a little like being blind. And that's not normally thought to be a good thing.

[ILetHimKeep20Quid]

When you are face to face with someone who has gone out of their way to prevent you seeing their face for no good reason, it's a barrier to effective communication that doesn't have to be there.

[KittensoftPuppydog]

No ones suggesting shouting in the street. They are expressing why they find the veil offensive.

[ILetHimKeep20Quid]

And radio isn't two way communication, it's broadcast.

On the phone, both parties are on equal footing.

[Quangle]

You don't do day to day interaction on the phone . The phone is for particular people. The street is public engagement generally. And there are different norms for the phone than for the street. You announce yourself on the phone, for instance. You may not know that you behave differently on the phone to on the street but you do.

When you are in the street you are just person to person. That's where we are expected to engage with each other on an equal basis. And that's why I don't like to see women having to hide themselves on the street.

[Quangle]

But to answer the OP. of course she shouldn't shout at you. It might help you to know why she feels alienated by your hiding your face from her. But you may not want to know that.

[Owllady]

I want to ask something but I am really worried about coming accross as offensive, which i hope it wont be. But when I studied Islam at school, I thought it was only the hair that had to be covered? Is it quite new to cover the whole of your face?

and of course this woman shouldn't be saying anything to you :( I don't know what you should do though, I am surprised other people havent said anything to her!

[DioneTheDiabolist]

Not true Ilethim. I have a friend who wears a Spiderman suit every time I visit him. He thinks he has a really good reason for wearing it and who am I to judge. It is no barrier whatever to our communications.

[Beeyump]

I also absolutely do not want to offend, but engaging face to face with someone who has their face covered can actually frighten me. Though the woman should not be shouting at you in the street, maybe she feels apprehensive? Silly way to deal with it though!

[LessMissAbs]

wanabee as a heterosexual women, I must admit I find women who dress in tight skirts and revealing tops to get attention quite irritating. There's a certain type of woman perhaps who cannot get the attention she craves from her own basic appearance, so uses dress to attract that attention. Complaining about it afterwards is often just to get more attention. For instance, I really dont want to see a tight top wretched over a pair of massive saggy boobs, whose outline is revealed. But I might quite admire someone like Jessica Ennis who doesn't seek to attract attention purely from the way she is dressed.

But why do we, in this day and age, protect people from religious discrimination with very strict, specific criminal laws, but not treat sex discrimination so strictly? The OP is being advised by some to go to the police, but thousands of women and some men are subjected to far worse abuse every day, but are expected to ignore it.

[PeppiNephrine]

Yes, its very helpful to "free women from oppression" by banning them from wearing certain things. Cos thats not at all oppressive.

How about all you confused folk tell your kids that its none of their business, or yours, if women choose to cover their faces.

[ILetHimKeep20Quid]

So why do you wear a veil op?

[missorinoco]

OP, I also wonder from what you describe whether she has dementia. She may disagree with the veil, but to shout across the road about it is disinhibited, especially for that generation.

I think you have done the right thing in explaining to you children she is probably ill. I would also probably add that is why you are ignoring her rude behaviour. If it continues or worsens I would probably speak with 101/your local police station and ask them to look into it.

What would I tell my children about the veil/niqab? This is part of some people's religion and culture, and they choose to cover their hair and faces outside of the home. Then get a book from the library to look at the various cultures of the world if I hadn't already done so.

[KittensoftPuppydog]

That it is part of someone's religion or culture doesn't really cover it though. An intelligent child will want to know why. What do you tell them then?

[CatAmongThePigeons]

OP wear what you want, the narrow-mindedness of others is not your problem.

[SubliminalMassaging]

he said I don't have to explain myself since we can all wear wht we like without commenting on others dress however bizarre it may seem to us.

Well, you can wear what you like, because you live in the UK, where you are afford freedom to express your faith however you choose and you are also afforded the respect as a woman to dress as you chose.

Ironically in many of the countries where the hijab/niqab or any other kind of covering for women is the norm woman sadly cannot wear what they like and will get heckled/abused or even attacked in the street for doing exactly what you are doing - wearing what you like.

I wonder if you (or your husband) would feel as offended in a devout muslim country like Saudi or Afghanistan for example, by seeing a woman abused in the street for not wearing a headscarf or a face veil when everyone else around her was?

[inalandfarfaraway]

In our open, free culture can dress how they like and say what they want. This does not mean that they way some people dress is appropriate to our society. Neither does is mean that the things some people say are appropriate either.

I think, OP that if you freely chose to dress in a way that seeks to place yourself outside of an open society you may be subject to behaviour and comments which offend you. Don't worry though, because the very open-ness of our culture means you have the freedom of speech to answer back.

As has been said already, our culture relies on face-to-face interaction as part of our primary means of communication, interaction and recognition. By removing your face from view you are effectively removing part of your ability to answer back in an appropriate way. You've had the advice from here to give the old lady a withering look, or to smile at her as you comment on her rudeness. You've chosen to disallow yourself these ways of responding.

I sometimes work in a country where I am made to wear the very outfit you chose to wear. I have no choice. I do not feel 'free' or enlightened in any way by being made to cover myself. I carefully remove the marks of rank from my uniform (I hold a fairly senior rank) and place them on the outside of the lovely black polyester, much to the amusement of my work colleagues (mostly male) who are happy to follow me through the public place I work in. It causes spluttering amongst the locals, but they can't find a reason for me not to do it, so long as I am covered up. But my point is, that in a culture where it is the norm for women to cover up, it is because they want women to make themselves anonymous. We don't live in that culture.

The OP did not want any comments on her attire, but her very way of dressing is designed to draw attention and debate in a country where it is unusual, and where it impedes normal social interaction. People ARE free to wear what they want, and a quick look over at the Feminism boards here on MN shows that people very often DO wear what they want, and that it isn't always acceptable. People are quick to criticise (and often rightly so) t-shirts with slogans that are not welcome in our culture, the oppressive gender stereotyping of girls and boys by clothes manufacturers, but weirdly quick to defend a woman's right to dress in a way which, in so many ways, is indefensible imo.

So yes, the shouty old lady was rude. There are many ways you could deal with this. You could give her a withering look, or a smile, or if these don't work, think up some clever words. Or you could choose not to draw attention to yourself so much in a culture where it is not the norm. The great thing about Britain is that you can do any of the above and not be punished by death for it. How cool is that?!

[Quangle]

I think the very best way to tackle this lady (assuming she doesn't have some sort of dementia that would make it difficult) would be to go up to her, take off your veil, smile and say hello and say "I'm sorry you don't like my veil but I wear it because XYZ...I just wanted to show you that I am just a normal woman like you and hope we can go along civilly from now on". Smile. Veil back on. You could do this without taking off the veil but breaking down the barrier would be the better way to do it.