Am I being unreasonable to confront this woman?

[justanuthermanicmumsday]

for those of you who don't know I wear a face veil usually a patterned scarf to avoid sticking out so much lol. point is I expect the odd comments maybe groans as I work past in my honour of course.

But two times now this senior lady I'd say in her 60s or more unprovoked loudly made comments at me. The first time she said" why are you wearing that" I was walking past with my twin buggy to supermarket, I thght she was incredibly rude. Had she said excuse me and proceeded to ask me a question in a normal tone I wouldn't have been miffed. Still I kept my cool said religious reasons as I walked away. I didn't want a conversation I don't see why I should explain when she was so rude.

yet today I see her again shouting across the road at me this time." No need to wear that take it off". Today I would say she looked aggressive or perhaps it was my eyes deceiving me. My toddler was with me she looked distressed said" mummy whys that lady shouting". I said "she's prob ill like your gran never mind her."

Should I confront her if this happens again? I'm not an aggressive person quite a walkover and not much confidence but I think it can't be ignored its like harassment.

I dread to think ill pass her again if I pop out she's always on the same route as me, yet why should I dread her.

Granted she doesn't like my dress neither does my brother, I'm not harming her in anyway. one sibling said I shouldn't confront her in case she goes to the police. But that's insane what reason would she have to go to the police i would simply tell her to get off my case. How would she like it if I told her to change her dress for something more acceptable to me. She's not the fashion police or the law.

Please remember this is not a conversation on whether you approve of my dress rather this woman's behaviour

[TakingThePea]

kittens you teach your child people can wear what they want?

The veil is not "offensive"

[Salbertina]

Maybe not confront but politely challenge? Then you have the upperhand on reasonableness.
You could try out that MN chestnut "did you mean to be so rude"? Said calmly and with a smile? Bet she backs off completely and leaves you alone.

[TakingThePea]

heart yes I agree, a man I know lived in the middle East for a long time, he said you rarely saw women fully covered.

Anyway this is exactly what the OP didn't want!

It is upsetting and unfair if we know a woman is being forced to wear it.

However, if she wants to wear it, she can and NOBODY regardless of age, culture, whatever has the right to shout things at her in the street.

[ILivebytheRiver]

It's terrible that you are having to experience this. The woman who is verbally abusing is, I suspect, mentally ill. I would report this to the police - it is completely unacceptable. I don't think such a person is up for a debate about the issues of wearing the veil and I don't think you should expose yourself or your child to a potentially even uglier confrontation.

[desertgirl]

Heartisaspade, thinking everyone who veils is part of one of "the most oppressive patriarchal communities" and is dressing that way out of a lack of options is also pretty naive

[LessMissAbs]

Interested in responses to this, as I've had similar comments on my choice of dress when out running - vest and shorts in summer. I ignore, because I can't stop to confront people all the time, and since it usually cones from men, im worried I might provoke an attack. When I went to turkey on holiday, I actually changed my sports gear so I was covered up even though I was uncomfortably hot, but it happened so much there I had to go running with a man, as I didn't feel safe on my own. So, interested in responses to this one...

[KittensoftPuppydog]

Taking, but it is, it offends me.
How would you explain why people would want to wear this?
Please can everyone take some time out to pledge support to an organisation that fights forced veiling.
The council of ex Muslims is a good place to start.
Plus one law for all.
Or Anything involving maryam namazie who is a total star.

[wannaBe]

"
You might not think you are harming anyone by covering yourself but you are pretty much making yourself into a walking symbol of female oppression and sending a terrible message to your daughters and everyone else who sees you." in who's opinion, exactly?

"Women have fought long and hard for the freedom we have today and you are throwing it all away." The freedom to presumably wear whatever you want, no? Including the vale if someone so chooses?

" I would urge you to read more about feminism - you can start by keeping an eye on the feminist section here on mumsnet." How bloody patronising. This post is precisely one of the reasons why I have the feminist section hidden, because it's full of narrow-minded views like the ones expressed above.

Interesting how some people claim they want freedom while at the same time imposing their own views of how people should act, dress etc on those they claim to be liberating.

Op if you choose to wear the vale then the why's and wherefores are none of anyone else's business, as long as you do so out of free choice. I do wonder why anyone feels they need to cover their face, and on some levels I wish that people didn't, but as long as someone does so through free choice alone then that is their choice and IMO not for anyone to criticise.

As for the people who say "what do I tell my children," well just tell them that that's how some religions dress, it doesn't need over explaining really, does it?

And ignore the old bat. ;)

[KittensoftPuppydog]

Btw, I remember being with a friend who was arrested and spent the night in the cells because of the T shirt he was wearing.
There are restrictions on what we wear, whether you want to hear it or not.

[FriedSprout]

If she asks you why again, Just reply. "Because I Can"

[ILetHimKeep20Quid]

It is not normal to expect to function in a society whilst obscuring your face. You can't choose to do that and expect people not to react.

[complexnumber]

"Just give her a withering look up and down "

Isn't that quite hard when you are wearing a veil?

[Quangle]

you have freedom to wear what you like but you also need to understand that many people in this country find it offensive. I do. It's demeaning to women (and men for that matter).

Aside from the women issue, in this culture, face to face contact is important - it is a part of our culture. When you cross the road you make eye contact and smile or in some way acknowledge the car driver who has stopped for you as a way of showing that you are two people engaged in a minor social discourse. When you are in a shop you look at the person serving you and smile - these are all normal ways of interacting in our society. These minor things are the tools that make our society work - the idea is that everyone is equal, everyone is unarmed (that's what the handshake is about), everyone has the same rights and obligations including the right to walk in the street and the obligation to participate appropriately in social interactions. Your veil does not allow you to do this.

You do have freedom of choice about what you wear. I am in doubts about whether that should extend to being able to hide your identity which is what a full face veil would do. But in law, yes you have freedom of choice about your clothes, but you also need to know that how you choose to dress offends many people. Incidentally I feel that the full veil does harm me - it contributes to a society in which women have to hide and men get freedom to do what they like. I understand that you won't change the way you dress just for me but it is an issue for me and it does harm me, just as lapdancing clubs that I would never go in harm me. BTW I live in a very, very Arab area and I see more women dressed like this than dressed like me (and I'm normally dressed very conservatively or boringly). It hurts me every time I see it. I'm not expecting you to change the way you dress for me but I am taking the opportunity to tell you why it is offensive to me.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

I am at the amount of delicate snowflakes here who get so worked up and intimidated by someone else's clothes.

OP, ignorant, bigoted, hostile people will always exist. There is no excuse for abusing women for what they wear.

[pianodoodle]

Whatever people's personal opinions on the veil (which weren't asked for by the OP) shouting at someone in the street is rude obnoxious behaviour and should not just be expected.

[hambo]

Quangle - hear hear.

[Quangle]

Dione, if we ever meet to have a chat, I'll do the whole thing with a paper bag over my head. Just spend the whole day with you covering my face so you can't see me. You can hear me but you can't see my expression, my reactions to your jokes, anything. Maybe try it for yourself at work and see how well it works.

This is not about clothes. This is about social interaction and identity.

bulletinoftheoppressionofwomen.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/disappearing-females-in-yemen.jpg

This picture, already posted, tells the story. Nothing wrong with anyone wearing whatever clothes they want to - but covering your face so you cannot engage normally with people? Different story.

[DuelingFanjo]

"but you also need to understand that many people in this country find it offensive"

why do you find it offensive. You are arguing about the lack of social interaction but that is not offensive. You are saying that it is demeaning but the women who are wearing it do not find it demeaning, they are choosing to wear it.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

Quangle, knock yourself out. You could be my new friend with a bag on her head and I could think that you are the only person amused by my jokes.. It still won't make you my weirdest friend though.

One wonders how blind people manage communication, after all they can't see anyone's facial expression. The OP should free to engage with people on her own terms without having to endure intimidation or having her children frightened by rude old ladies.

[wannaBe]

so, if a woman dresses in the vale then she is just asking for it if she is abused in the street? In the same way, presumably, that if a woman dresses in a short skirt and revealing top she is just asking for it if she is sexually asalted? no thought not.

I made that comparison deliberately because the women claiming the former are quick enough to jump on people who claim the latter, but actually, there is no difference.

No-one has the right to be offended at someone else's dress unless that dress is deliberately offensive e.g. contains offensive slogans etc. People might not like it but that is their issue to deal with. No-one is making you wear the vale, if they were you could get offended, but what someone else wears is their business, no-one has the right to abuse them because of it.

freedom of expression doesn't just mean that you have that freedom, it also means that others have the freedom to express their religion/culture in a manner they see fit. You can't claim freedom while oppressing someone else.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

Oh and I'm also a big fan of radio. My inability to see the faces of the people that I am listening to has not yet impeded my ability to understand and indeed be enthralled by them.