Am I being unreasonable to confront this woman?

[justanuthermanicmumsday]

for those of you who don't know I wear a face veil usually a patterned scarf to avoid sticking out so much lol. point is I expect the odd comments maybe groans as I work past in my honour of course.

But two times now this senior lady I'd say in her 60s or more unprovoked loudly made comments at me. The first time she said" why are you wearing that" I was walking past with my twin buggy to supermarket, I thght she was incredibly rude. Had she said excuse me and proceeded to ask me a question in a normal tone I wouldn't have been miffed. Still I kept my cool said religious reasons as I walked away. I didn't want a conversation I don't see why I should explain when she was so rude.

yet today I see her again shouting across the road at me this time." No need to wear that take it off". Today I would say she looked aggressive or perhaps it was my eyes deceiving me. My toddler was with me she looked distressed said" mummy whys that lady shouting". I said "she's prob ill like your gran never mind her."

Should I confront her if this happens again? I'm not an aggressive person quite a walkover and not much confidence but I think it can't be ignored its like harassment.

I dread to think ill pass her again if I pop out she's always on the same route as me, yet why should I dread her.

Granted she doesn't like my dress neither does my brother, I'm not harming her in anyway. one sibling said I shouldn't confront her in case she goes to the police. But that's insane what reason would she have to go to the police i would simply tell her to get off my case. How would she like it if I told her to change her dress for something more acceptable to me. She's not the fashion police or the law.

Please remember this is not a conversation on whether you approve of my dress rather this woman's behaviour

[Succubi]

PeppiNephrine - There were no personal attacks in mine either.

[SubliminalMassaging]

And that's the funny thing isn't it Peppi? In many muslim countries someone else would be in charge of what is normal for me.

[SubliminalMassaging]

It's not a question of feeling scared exactly, it's of feeling unsettled and at a disadvantage in communication. It just feels rude.

[SubliminalMassaging]

We aren't even talking about what other countries do. That is not the issue here as this happened in this country.

I think it's completely valid to look at how the commonly attitudes of other countries towards people who do things which are outside their cultural norm compare to our expectations of ourselves in this country - don't you?

[SubliminalMassaging]

commonly held attitudes

[FreudiansSlipper]

but what expectations are you talking about? yours? those of the people you know?

[SubliminalMassaging]

The general societal/political expectation that the UK should always be seen to be at least as tolerant of people who do not conform to the 'norm' as the most tolerant other nations!

On an individual level plenty of us are pretty intolerant but they begrudgingly accept that part of being British is to be seen to be tolerant to an Olympic Gold standard.

[SenoritaViva]

I am so embarrassed by the way many humans treat others. Why can't we respect each other's wishes and accept that people choose to live their lives differently from each other?

It makes my blood boil, especially the white British folk that make assumptions about race and religion and become abusive about it and all "this is our country" - I am white British and there's simply no need for it.

[YouTheCat]

But the OP is from this country. So what relevance has other country's attitudes to this particular thread?

Or do you assume that, because she is Muslim, that she isn't British?

[RowanMumsnet]

@Succubi

One my posts was deleted and I am at an absolute loss as to why. I have asked Mumsnet to clarify.

For the avoidance of doubt I am Muslim and I find the veil/chadoor/headscarf deeply offensive.

Apologies Succubi - yours shouldn't have been deleted. We've reinstated it now.

[Succubi]

RowanMumsnet - Many thanks for looking into this so promptly. Really appreciated and thank you for reinstating.

[SubliminalMassaging]

No, I make no such assumption, in fact if anything I assume she is British.

I'm not sure why you want to make this a thing about being 'anti-foreigner' or 'anti-muslim.' It's about, and only about being anti- full face covering. Contrary to what you are keen to imply, I am not making some childish tit-for-tat statement about not giving forrin people their own way because I don't get my own way in 'their' country.

As I said upthread, if many, many people who currently do not cover their whole face (of either gender, and of any or no religious persuasion) took to doing so every single time they stepped out of the house there would be some sort of government emergency summit.

There would, quite rightly, be some grave concern over what the long term societal implications were.

I was comparing the UK to other countries because it is sometimes helpful for a balanced view, to look at how people who adopt cultural or religious practices that are vastly different to the norm/majority are treated and tolerated (or not) elsewhere. It doesn't have to be about being 'foreign' and I have never said anything of the sort on this thread.

The full face covering is, quite simply, something that the majority of British people feel culturally deeply uncomfortable with for a whole variety of complex and very valid reasons. But we continue to allow it anyway.

It is not necessary for Muslim women to cover their entire faces in order to be true to Islam, I can see no obvious benefit to it, but I can see many potential situations where the right to wear a full face covering (by anyone, muslim woman or otherwise) is deliberately divisive, open to abuse and employed for purely cynical reasons.

[YouTheCat]

But that is irrelevant to the OP, who has made her choice to cover her face. She hasn't been told she must, she does it because she wants to and she doesn't sound like she's expecting anyone else to cover theirs.

I don't see how that means she should be subjected to abuse from ignorant old women.

[RowanMumsnet]

PeppiNephrine yours were deleted for containing personal attacks. We can't really explain fully here (because we don't want to re-post the attacks) but if you mail in to [email protected] we'll talk you through it.

[SubliminalMassaging]

It's not irrelevant at all! The whole point of the thread was to try to understand why the old woman might want to say what she said, and whether or not she had a right to say it and more importantly, to feel it.

I'll be the first person to say she was rude and unnecessarily outspoken, but I will not criticise her for feeling uncomfortable or alienated by the OP's choice of dress, one little bit.

[YouTheCat]

She was more than rude, she was abusive.

We all have the right to think and feel what we want. We do not have the right to express that in public if it is abusive to another person.

Personally I'd say the feelings of the OP, being publicly abused in front of her children, trumps those of an old woman across the street.

[PeppiNephrine]

I don't care whether or not there is an actual law against shouting at people in the street for their mode of dress. Do you need it to be illegal to stop yourself doing something so rude and nasty?

Woman in the OP has every right to feel however she likes, as do we all. However when we start believing that our feelings allow us to interfere with, harass, abuse and change the behaviour of someone who is merely walking down the street minding their own business with a piece of cloth in a particular place on their bodies, thats when, rather obviously, you've lost the plot.

[SubliminalMassaging]

Was she more than rude? Was she 'abusive' ? (a much over-used worf on MN in my opinion.)

the Op has said that one day she 'commented loudly "why are you wearing that?" and on a second occasion said 'you don't need to wear that, take it off.'

I think that's rude and outspoken, but I don't think it's especially abusive. Especially not as the woman is clearly made to feel alienated and uncomfortable with it. If I saw a person naked in the street I might be inclined to tell them to put some clothes on because they were making me feel uncomfortable. I'm not sure I see the difference, once you take the obvious elephant out of the room, in that there is a minority religious rights element to it.

[Talkinpeace]

OP appears to have disappeared (funny that)

My thought would be that she asks the lady what brand of scarf she should wear, because this one is Hermes dahling

[YouTheCat]

On the second occasion she was shouting from across the road - I'd say that is abusive and unnecessary.

[PeppiNephrine]

Would you be ok with someone roaring at you from across the street to take off an item of your clothes?

[PeppiNephrine]

And if you're not sure you see the difference, one clear one is that it is illegal to be naked in the street, it is not illegal to wear a veil.

I'm still waiting for a good reason why your discomfort is anything other than your problem? You seem to think that things making your uncomfortable make them your business, that you get an input. Why is that?

[SubliminalMassaging]

OK, so playing devil's advocate, I go to live in Oman or Egypt or Sudan (or I am born there to expat parents) and one day I go off way the beaten track wearing my shorts and bikini top, and I wander into a marketplace populated entirely by fairly traditional locals, and I start to snap pictures of all the cute, funny little covered up old ladies.

Best case scenario: I am given several hundred very dirty looks, muttered at, tutted at, probably told in no uncertain terms to cover up, the police may be called to remove me and give me a friendly (or not so friendly) lecture.

Worst case scenario: I am spat at, jostled, sexually assaulted by a mob and called an infidel whore.

Of course most of you would say that was a terrible thing, and it should not have happened. What else would you say to me? About how I might have avoided/prevented it?

Bearing in mind I live there, and I am fully aware that I am behaving in a way that the majority find odd or unacceptable?

[SubliminalMassaging]

OK, so not naked, but in a tiny bikini, or a man just in underpants, where I can clearly see the barely disguised outline of his genitals?

[FlorenceMattell]

Ignore the lady OP. Even if you took time to explain I would guess she wouldn't listen. Maybe she suffers from mental illness and can't control her behaviour. I would feel sorry for her to be honest. But if she is aggressive towards you I would ring the police yourself.