homeopathy... aibu to say i think of it's a crock of crap?

[ILetHimKeep20Quid]

Was at my brothers for dinner yesterday. My baby has a touch of eczema. As a chronic sufferer myself I roll my eyes whenever people start on the 'oh have you tried this' thing but smile and nod. I have used steroid creams in the past, of various strengths, to deal with outbreaks. I'm well versed in the treatment.

So, the wee touch my ds has isn't concerning me and I'm moisturizing him regularly.

Cue my sil practically gushing over her homeopath (not just a normal one. He's a gp but does this on the side it seems).

I smiled and nodded. Not wanting to get into the whole thing. But she would not give up. So I asked 'what is homeopathy?'

Apparently, get this, water has a memory. What the actual fuck? How can water have a memory?

www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9982234/Homeopathy-on-the-NHS-is-mad-says-outgoing-scientific-adviser.html

I have never come across a doctor who won't suggest a 'traditional' method that has proven its effectiveness over centuries.

I think the problem is that there are dieticians and other 'alternative' practitioners (eg Gillian whatshername from channel 4) who are taking people's money and telling people that there is science to support their theories when there isn't.

See also weight loss books.

Osteopathy is another as that's full of holes.
Because it sounds reasonable to manipulate the body and produce clicks (the escape of nitrogen from a mobilised joint) ppl believe it.
Some therapies produce a similar effect to gentle exercise, which is recommended by medical doctors but overall it's not based on "good science"
Just because a theory or treatment sounds obvious or plausible or sensible, doesn't mean that it is. It must be tested to be considered reliably efficacious.

Lweji - only by listening to enough "stories" can we begin to find new remedies. Manuka honey is mainstream now and even being used to combat superbugs. 10 years ago it was another "story". Antibiotics were discovered by accident.

Let me give you an example. My DD had horrendous eczema. Creams were not working. She was nearly hospitalised with it when it was infected. I worked out it wasn't dietary. I kept thinking about washing powder (I was already on non bio ecover) but this was dismissed by every doctor I spoke to due to lack of "evidence". In desperation I switched to a coconut cleanser on her clothes and her eczema vanished. I have spoken to many other eczema sufferers who say the same thing.

The doctors shrug. There is no "evidence". Well maybe not, but if you compiled a record of all these people you might start to see a pattern.

And save the NHS a tonne of money on antibiotics, allergy tests, steroid creams....

This is why desperate parents turn from conventional medicine. Of course it has its place but for less serious chronic issues I tend to do my own research now, using common sense when I need western medicine.

There is evidence to support topical applications for eczema though. Simply avoiding soap and using a moisturiser is first line treatment for the condition.
Also. Most cases of paediatric eczema are self limiting.
It is true that ppl's stories need to be listened to. That's called qualitative data. But that doesn't mean that because my friend reckons her homeopath has effectively cured her pmt that it is true. That's where testing comes in. Ppl's stories are listened to and then the treatment is tested and so far of all the "alternatives" acupuncture is the only thing that seems to hold any key to reliable treatments for certain ails.
One of the reasons that it's dangerous to peddle this shit (homeopathy etc) is that often products are NOT safe. Much Chinese herbal medicine used in eczema treatment has been found to be effective.... Because it's laden with steroids at much higher levels than would be sanctioned by a medical doctor.

And changing laundry detergent is always advised by a decent medical practitioner.
The dietary link is very tenuous. Not really proven yet.

Therea, I spoke to numerous doctors who poo poo'd the washing powder theory and no doubt still are, to numerous other parents. There is evidence that diet affects up to ten per cent of cases - that's sizeable enough to me to be worth a shot.

Peoples' stories are not listened to and so your so called qualitative data is not gathered.

As for soap and water - most GPs hand out aqueous cream which was originally designed as a soap!

It's not just eczema, it's a multitude of issues from migraines to sinusitis to IBS - and diet....

There haven't actually been many controlled studies done on osteopathy to be honest.

That's why, for me, a lack of reliable evidence means diddly squat until I personally look into what studies have been done and when and by whom.

Well sadly not all gps are up to date.
Aqueous cream is not considered to be an appropriate emollient for eczematus skin. Some still prescribe it because they are out of date andit's very cheap.

And I'm afraid I can't take credit for the development of qualitative data.

oohdaddypig

To really make sure it was the detergent you would have had to use the previous detergent again and then switch back to the new detergent.

Even if there are lots of stories, it doesn't mean anything unless we know how many non successes are there.

(see my previous example of my son's heel pain which also suddenly disappeared without treatment)

Not saying it's not the detergent. It possibly was and another doctor might have agreed with a change. That's why we often get 2nd opinions.

BTW, qualitative data is not people's stories, but refers to data that can't be measured. For example, pain.

People's stories are anecdotal evidence.

See also Faulty logic in relation to anecdotal evidence.

Lweji just clicked the "storm" link.
Thanks. Genius. Love him.

why are people so jeffing uneducated about scientific method?

Have schools stopped teaching it or something?

Of course there is nothing wrong with listening to stories and gaining an insight into what might be going on...the next step is to test the hypothesis....then you declare the data either support or do not support your hypothesis.

eg, homeopathy. Okay it is a bonkers idea but whatever. Lots of people indicate that they believe it helped them. So we tested it. And what we found is that there is no difference in symptoms, experiences or anything else between people given a homeopathic treatment and those given a placebo treatment.

We declare the data do not support the hypothesis.

People say oh well perhaps it only works in certain cases....so we tested those. Still nothing.

also it is perfectly possible to get side effects from homeopathic treatments.

There is the placebo effect which refers to improvements reported due to treatment which is utterly physiologically inert.

Then there is the nocebo effect which refers to side effects reported due to treatment which is utterly physiologically inert.

The brain is a complicated thing...if you are expecting a tablet to cause side effects then it will tend to...even if it is utterly inert biologically.

oohdaddypig

osteopathy RCTs

Plus. Ppl are charging good money for this snake oil.

And IceBeing, there is the wonderful active placebo effect which is the additional improvement observed when the placebo is not physiologically inert, but causes some side effects.
Give a patient with condition X a drug that treats condition Y and has no therapeutic effect at all against condition X, and you should see a really big placebo effect.

Icebeing
I was wondering that.
I'm sure it was taught in general science at school before we took " options.
But then much of rudimentary chemistry escapes me
And I can't remember how to hem an apron (yes, I went to school a long time ago) so I guess we forget stuff.

I think maybe the problem is that science is taught as facts instead of the focus being on the scientific process.

There are no facts. There is only the process.

Quite.
Very little is done to evaluate results or even design experiments.

I am not terribly old, and did separate sciences and A-levels Biology, Chemistry and Physics, but I distinctly remember my A-level Chemistry coursework because not a single one of my experiments worked and my teacher said it didn't matter because it was all about testing a theory and even if I was wrong in my hypothesis, they were still results. Things have maybe changed a lot in the past 10-15 years though.

Lweji - you think I haven't switched back to mainstream powder at least twice? The coconut stuff is flipping expensive.

Of course it's anecdotal, not been controlled tested to within an inch of its life therefore my "story" is of no use to doctors who will still blindly prescribe steroid creams for babies who literally cannot sleep for scratching.

Maybe we should also teach in schools that science doesn't have all the answers and can be wrong and can be completely contradicted by another study on the same thing!

^They do teach that in schools.

Lweji - you think I haven't switched back to mainstream powder at least twice?
You hadn't said anything. :)

My point was that for such experiences to be considered evidence, there are clear guidelines. Just saying that "it got better when I switched powders" is not enough.

Science is about trying and testing.
And yes, current scientific knowledge can be disproved by new experiments. It's all part of the scientific method.

Regarding washing powders, I have always seen advice about washing powders and babies. www.patient.co.uk/health/Atopic-Eczema.htm
Maybe you got a particularly obtuse doctor.
My washing machine even has a baby cycle with extra rinse cycles to better remove washing powder.

My DS always gets eczema when he goes to the beach for the first time after at least an interval of a few days.
I don't know what causes it.
Giving anti-histamines before going and mosturising a lot helps reduce the initial flare.
Then it just gets better, even when I remove any treatment, but still use the same clothes and sun block.
Now, I wish I knew what was going on.

"Of course it's anecdotal, not been controlled tested to within an inch of its life therefore my "story" is of no use to doctors who will still blindly prescribe steroid creams for babies who literally cannot sleep for scratching. "

People are always saying things like this. But either I have been very lucky in the doctors my friends and I have seen with out children, or mumsnetters are particularly unlucky with theirs. I have never had medication forced on me- i was several times asked to produce a food diary for a consultqtion about my ds's mysterious stomach pain for example, and he was always gently asked about possible stress and anxiety. My dd was advised to take her painful back (too much ballet and riding) to yoga. Just luck, I guess.