To warn MNers with small babies not to make a rod for their backs

[PenelopeChipShop]

I am already up for the second time tonight with ds and he won't let me put him back in the cot. He's now 14 months and has never slept for more than 4 hours at a stretch - that was twice and I thought I'd died and gone to heaven at 4 hours sleep. Average is 2-3 hours, but hourly wake ups are not unusual. This is EVERY night, when healthy and not teething, he just cannot sleep for long stretches.

I have come to the conclusion that I can only blame myself and DH I suppose for not teaching him good sleep habits / self settling etc. I didn't read any books on Baby sleep until we already had a problem so did everything you aren't supposed to do - let him nap in my arms, rocked him, fed him to sleep. And co slept for a year. At the time when friends warned me about the things I should have been doing I was relaxed about it and is it thought I want to enjoy snuggling him and not worry about the future. He hated being out down so I never pushed him to sleep alone.

Now I have a 14 month old who still won't sleep and requires constant re settling throughout the night. I am broken with tiredness. Always thought I wanted 2 dc but both DH and I are no longer sure that we could go through this again. I do all the nights though!

So if you have a new baby and thought the same as me be warned. If you don't try and teach babies to sleep before they are too old to object, well guess what - they don't just learn it on their own. It's too late for me but maybe I can save others from my fate. So so sooooo tired :-(

Can you afford a night nanny for a few days? Most have cracked bad sleepers within a week...

Or can you split it, your DH does until midnight, you do after, so you at least get a stretch of sleep.

Some babies sleep badly no matter what you do, but to extrapolate from that to say that whatever you do will have no effect on any baby (as some seem to be implying) is a nonsense. When people come out with this rubbish I feel the need to start drawing venn diagrams.

My 10 month old DS2 sleeps (sometimes) 7-11.30/1.30/2.30 then 3-4.30/5/5.30 Very rarely past 5.30. In between 11.30 & 2.20 he's pretty unsettled, squirming etc. The same between 4&5.30.
We co slept until he chose not to, around 7 months & he's still in our room as DS1 sleeps brilliantly and not prepared to risk disturbing him.
OP you have my sympathies you really do, I'm at the end of my teacher & am a very cranky, run down Mummy.
I have left him once to CIO and after 2 hours+ of him crying, well yelling in fury I gave in- how letting him make himself hot and horse will help us beyond me?? He can self soothe and can and will fall asleep happily alone. Just can't settle for periods of more than 5 hours max really.

Hoarse even!

Hey fellow Penelope!

I'm with Quenelle - your DH needs to parent the fuck up and help some more. It will make him tired, grumpy and possibly (temporarily) affect his performance at work. BUT you are already tired, grumpy, turning down work because you cannot contemplate returning to employment, unable to consider having more children and even having suicidal thoughts in the dark recesses of the night.

You both made this kid, you both get to deal with the gnarlier bits of raising it.

The kindest but not necessarily quickest way for your DS to learn that there are other ways to fall asleep than with a boob in his mouth is for a parent who loves him unconditionally to come to him in the night and comfort him minus boobs. E.g. his Dad. Which would be great because conveniently he already lives in your house.

If you have the No-Cry Sleep Solution already you know how to do this - make a plan for DH to implement and try it for at least 10 days before you review it. If taking over full-time is not an option for your DH give him part of the night shift. Or get him to take a week off work. Look at the drastic things you are saying on this thread - no work, no more children, feel suicidal, blaming yourself. In that context a week's annual leave is small beer.

This period will not last long not will it hurt your son. Night weaning a child over one is not cruel and for children who rely heavily on bf-ing to go back to sleep sometimes the only way to do it is by building a set of positive alternative associations.

In a few months you might feel like a different woman, you and DH could have your evenings back and some of your sanity back, and you'll be posting on threads like this saying 'No really all children are different - don't blame yourself!'.

Agree with everything PenelopePipStop said. This situation isn't working for you. It's driving your life decisions. Your partner loves you (I hope). This is something he needs to see as something he needs to do for his wife. Not as something 'childcare' related that he's allowed to delegate on the excuse of paid employment.

I have to disagree with you (in a nice way) because with my first baby I was careful to try and not rock or push or sing to sleep etc, and he is still an awful sleeper at 3.5 years!

With my second baby, I decided that I had nothing to lose and I was happy with the idea of stroke, rock, sing, and a dummy, but he sleeps brilliantly by himself doesn't often need much intervention from me at all.

So the surprising conclusion seems to be that it largely depends on the personality of the child.

I'm not knocking what experts say about sleep, because too many people seem to be saying the same thing about that, but there are other people who (on the flip side of the coin) suggest that you can't spoil a child and they will sleep when they're ready, whatever you do or don't do regardless.

cotedzur. No actually, I am very aware what sleep deprecation is like, my DC is 6mths and bf every 2-3 hours during the night, but this time is precious to me ~ they are only this small and dependable for such a short time and I enjoy these one to one moments where I can. Totally agree with rooners

YABU, there is no such thing as making a rod for your own back by giving too much comfort and cuddles!!!
Surely you know this really?
By being there for your baby you have reduced their stress levels while their brains are developing. Your baby will reap the rewards of this as they grow.
Don't go against your own instincts and start following a book instead!

I reckon that sleeping well is just one of those milestones that some kids reach before others, like walking or talking. They write books about sleep rather than other milestones because they sell - everyone wants a good sleeping baby!
My daughter didn't sleep through until about the age of your LO when in desperation I did a sort of controlled crying. I had tried doing Baby Whisperer from 3mo, didn't work for us.

I felt like I'd done everything wrong, all of the effort that I'd gone to to try to get her sleeping through, it didn't work. I just think she finally slept through when she was ready but by the time she was, I was close to a breakdown I think! I was so stressed.

My son is now the same age as yours, he doesn't sleep through yet either. He usually ends up in our bed, I breastfeed him to sleep and if I'm still awake I return him to his cot, or if I fall asleep he stays in with us! He goes about 4-5 hours at most so wakes 2-4 times a night.
With my son, I've accepted that it's just the way he is (or, just the way my kids are apparently) and so I don't feel as stressed about it which helps. I am not fighting to get him to do something that he's not yet ready to do. I don't want to do CC yet as I don't want to wake up DD or husband (who has to be rested for work) unnecessarily. (I'm a SAHM)

When you find what works (and you will), it works because it is the right time for it to work. If you'd tried it earlier, it wouldn't necessarily have worked then if you see what I mean.

I hate threads like this. OP I hope your situation improves and you get some rest. As for most of what's written here...

Posters keep saying "All babies are different. I breastfed to sleep, co-slept, never left baby to cry...." I get a real feeling that, despite all babies being different, co-sleeping, bfing to sleep, etc is what these posters think we all ought to be doing. Well every baby is different and some won't bf to sleep. Some cannot cope with being in the same room as their parents, despite the SIDS advice (nope, baby hasn't read this either). Some cry because they just want to go to sleep but don't know how. No amount of shushing and patting will help that. And if you have a baby like this you might have to do something to help them.

That might be some form of sleep training and if that works, and you come onto an Internet forum saying it worked for your baby, you should not be castigated for that. (All babies being different and all.) I dread to think how many mothers have been put off making a considered choice about sleep training (I don't necessarily mean cc or cio) by the sanctimonious stuff written on here.

And while I'm on my soap box, I'll say: every parent is different too. Some parents cannot cope with months or years of broken sleep. Some cope beautifully and it doesn't significantly impact on how they behave and parent during the day. Some find it tough and sometimes wonder if they'd be a nicer/more productive/happier person if they got more sleep. What all these parents likely have in common is that they love their children and are just trying to do what they think is best on the whole for their child.

There is no "best way" to do it.

Cote Dazur no I haven't forgotten what sleep deprivation is like - which is why I used methods that worked for me - safe co sleeping, feeding to sleep, midnight walks in the buggy, cuddling and rocking. Not reading books about "sleep training" and "self settling" which made things worse and had no impact.

I tried CIO once and it was horrible and made things worse.

I just really hate that phrase "rod for your own back". Usually announced by bored disciplinarians or wet blankets who cannot be creative with the demands they face. So they come up with that tripe phrase.

TrueStory I hate it too. That's why I based all my decisions on not worrying about it. But this far down the line I am questioning that!

Penelope thanks for another great post. What you say does make sense. I actually intended this post to be semi tongue in cheek but I think my genuine desperation has come through! I hadn't really thought of it as that serious but yeah, I probably shouldn't be making life decisions based on what should be a short period of ds infancy!

Going to have to talk to Dh I think. He really isn't too bad - gives me lie ins at the weekend to catch up and helps put ds down for the night if he's playing up - but it's the middle of the night stuff that's a killer!

Thanks to everyone for thoughts and advice. It is reassuring to hear that so many people don't think I'm to blame, at least!

Nope it seems to be the way they are.

My oldest gradually started to sleep all night from just before he was 1, he rarely woke up by the time he was 2. He is generally quite laid back and likes to lounge with a cuddly toy.

DS2 has been a different kettle of fish. Had only slept more than a few hours in a row about 6 times and is a wee ball of energy. Just non stop and can hardly sit still for a story, whereas his brother would have listened to 6 in a row at that age. As a previous poster mentioned, he doesn't have a comforter or suck his thumb.

Both bf and/or cuddled to sleep for as long as they wanted and whenever they woke, just different.

Zzzzz

By the way OP your name made me

Yes the comforter thing has got to have something to do with it. I am also trying out every bear, monkey and frog he owns on night duty to see if any of them make a difference but he isn't especially attached to anything in particular.

I don't think it's necessarily your fault for co-sleeping, cuddling etc. My DS co-slept 'till a year, and was always fed/cuddled to sleep (still is). At a year, I night weaned. It took one night till he no longer asked for milk, then we had a few weeks of him waking in the night and wanting to come into our bed. I never said no. He just came in, cuddled and went straight to sleep. Gradually he woke less and less, and then it only took a hand on his back to settle him when he woke and couldn't sleep. Now he rarely wakes, and usually self-settles again unless he's kicked all his covers off and is cold. We did buy one of those musical things that plays when they cry and it did help as it comes on when he stirs before he's fully awake. I play it when he's first falling asleep too, and it pretty much puts him to sleep now.

Yabu, but you have my massive sympathies, sleep deprivation is awful.
Only examples I know but my nephew was left to cry to get him to settle and he's now a nightmare at bedtimes
Ds was a nightmare sleeper as a baby and we had to co-sleep/feed to sleep to cope. He now settles every night without any hassle (stories, a lullaby and then he just snuggles up with his teddy and drifts off). I did use very gentle sleep training methods when he was about 14 months though as I was desperate! We stopped feeding at night, dh would go in and offer him water in a bottle instead. And to settle him at bed time I sat by the bed cuddling him instead of feeding to sleep.

You are the comforter. :)

One piece of advice I really took on board was that babies (and adults) sleep in cycles of about 2 hours. They sort of wake up and will normally go back to sleep if all is well.
If they are hungry or in discomfort they will wake up, but also if things look different.

So, when DS started waking up a lot I'd double ensure he settled himself to sleep.
That meant a go to bed routine, with a book, a cuddle and dim lights then dark.
I'd soothe every minute for a while, then 2 min. He'd fall asleep usually after the loudest cry. It did help him sleep longer at night.

He is 8, he still likes cuddles to sleep and to sleep in my bed, even though he's quite happy to be on his own as well.

DS was always a crappy sleeper. The only thing that made it bearable for us was to co sleep (at least we weren't physically getting out of bed to deal with him umpteen times a night). At about 12 months he stopped nighttime feeds (bf) but still woke every 2 hours. At 16 months he stopped his bedtime bf altogether (just as I was thinking of bringing it to an end anyway). He just stopped needing cuddling to sleep and wen he started talking he asked for "bed" so we'd put him down and he wanted to hold hands til he fell asleep.

Then he started sleeping through. Brilliant we thought, he's finally got it! Then his back teeth started coming through. Now he's almost 2, and will settle quite easily at bedtime but we can't seem to progress from the hand holding (gets hysterical if we try, but since its only 10 mins we're happy to keep on for the time being). For the last 2 weeks we've had multiple night wakings again due to teething, and have been bringing him to bed with us as he wants the comfort and we both work.

Guess what I'm trying to say is that as they grow and develop, their sleep patterns change. Just because they sleep through at 6 weeks doesn't mean they will always sleep through (yes SIL, I'm talking to you), and conversely just because they start off being a crappy sleeper doesn't necessarily mean they always will be. We did once try cc ad he got so distressed he vomited all over. That was the first and last attempt at sleep training.

Yes, the multiple wakings an calpolling are hideously draining when we're both up for work in the morning, but we cling on to the mantra that it won't last forever, and we're just responding to his needs as they are now. Fwiw, he is a happy, confident little boy, who seems to gve no ill effects from lack of sleep (just us!)

I know your DH works, but surely not 7 days a week? Maybe he can do all the night waking stuff on weekends/ hen he doesn't need to be up in the morning. Then you get at least 1/2 decent sleeps a week (he'll still get 5 remember!) then you can take over in the morning while he has a lie in. Yes, weekends may be a bit of a write off, but its not forever. We did this and it saved our sanity.

"otedzur. No actually, I am very aware what sleep deprecation is like"

Well, I don't. What on earth is 'sleep deprecation'?

Obviously, when people tell you you don't need to sleep as much as you think you do, or that sleep is underrated.

"there is no such thing as making a rod for your own back by giving too much comfort and cuddles!!! "

That is not what the OP is about.

Those of us who have used sleep training methods don't say "Oooh we gave too much comfort and too many cuddles to the baby today, so no more cuddles until tomorrow afternoon, and we will hold him at arms length until then too, so as not to give any more cuddles".