To warn MNers with small babies not to make a rod for their backs

[PenelopeChipShop]

I am already up for the second time tonight with ds and he won't let me put him back in the cot. He's now 14 months and has never slept for more than 4 hours at a stretch - that was twice and I thought I'd died and gone to heaven at 4 hours sleep. Average is 2-3 hours, but hourly wake ups are not unusual. This is EVERY night, when healthy and not teething, he just cannot sleep for long stretches.

I have come to the conclusion that I can only blame myself and DH I suppose for not teaching him good sleep habits / self settling etc. I didn't read any books on Baby sleep until we already had a problem so did everything you aren't supposed to do - let him nap in my arms, rocked him, fed him to sleep. And co slept for a year. At the time when friends warned me about the things I should have been doing I was relaxed about it and is it thought I want to enjoy snuggling him and not worry about the future. He hated being out down so I never pushed him to sleep alone.

Now I have a 14 month old who still won't sleep and requires constant re settling throughout the night. I am broken with tiredness. Always thought I wanted 2 dc but both DH and I are no longer sure that we could go through this again. I do all the nights though!

So if you have a new baby and thought the same as me be warned. If you don't try and teach babies to sleep before they are too old to object, well guess what - they don't just learn it on their own. It's too late for me but maybe I can save others from my fate. So so sooooo tired :-(

There are soooo many factors involved in babies that dont sleep but the reality is some do and some dont. I presumed mine was down to eratic breastfeeding, nothing really changed though once he was bottle fed. He wasnt a sleeper then and at 9 he still isnt now, he just gets told off when he wakes us up which you cant do with a 9 month old!
We did eventually succumb to controlled crying as frankly it was ridiculous getting up 4 times a night with an 18 month old, it worked and would at least get us from 10 - 5am which was bliss in our eyes. I remember mums in our baby group who would tell us that there dd would giggle and sing quietly in her cot in the morning. That is why they went on to have another - who was a DS. he he he they didnt know what hit 'em (cue evil maniacal laughter)

I realise I am just repeating what has already been said but will say it anyway.

It is down to the baby and their personality/body/brain whatever. There are 'good' babies and 'not so good' babies in relation to sleeping.

I BF and co-slept with DD, I am doing the same thing 9 years on with DS. DD barely slept, I tried everything. I decided with DS that I would just go with the flow (not much of one for reading help books) and what will be will be. He made his own routine from about 3 weeks old, sleeping 7-4 from 6 weeks (I had barely any input in this, it was what he told me he wanted) at 4 he would get in bed with me for a feed and we'd co-sleep until 7 at which point I would wake him in order to get DD to school.

He is now 6 months old, he has to have been bathed by 6pm or he screams. He is never awake later than 7.30pm, he is currently teething so sleep is a bit hit and miss, but he tends to go til 3am with just one dream feed. After 3, it's a world of pain and grizzles but this should stop when teething is over....which is how long again?

It's all down to the baby on whether they will comply with the books, us mere parents just have to roll with the punches

I had 2 rubbish sleepers, my smug sil had 1 excellent sleeper - slept through at 8 weeks, has to be woken for school now!! Then she had dc2 who aged almost 3 still doesn't sleep and the smugness disappeared :-).
Fwiw I did sleep train mine both aged about 12 months. I was adamant I would never do it but we were all on our knees from tiredness, including the children. For both of them 2 nights of crying was a price worth paying, we were happier and more importantly they were too. Now 3 and 5 they are usually great sleepers bit they still hop in for a cuddle with us in the morning.

My two were rubbish sleepers. DD2 only started sleeping through aged about 22 months. Not long before that it was every two hours.

With DD1 I did everything (roughly) right. She was in her own room from 6 months. I night weaned. Result- she was up for at least a two hour stretch every night plus a few separate wakings. I was broken.

DD2 co-slept and bf whenever she wanted. She resettled easily. I was tired, but I could function. I was safe behind the wheel of the car and I could look after my children.

Despite what everyone tells you in books, there is no right and wrong. You do what works for you at a given time. And if it is not working, you find ways to change it.

You could try a gradual retreat thing. We did at fifteen months, as although DS slept through from 6 months, he required 40 minutes of vigorous rocking and I could no longer take the physical strain.

We started off beside his cot, lying down next to it, and stroking his back and cuddling him when he needed it. Two weeks later (we wanted to do things as kindly as possible) we were done.

He's now two and rubs his eyes and asks for "nap time" when he's tired.

if you are still reading op, you really can sort this out.

YOu need your partners help, not sure why you are doing all the nights, but - you will need help because to tackle sleep problems, there will initially be less sleep for everyone.

Personally if its so bad you are considering not having another child, I would just pay a sleep trainer, they will have your child sleeping well (ie. better than now..) in a week - its really not that hard.

Yes they will cry and shout while falling asleep , but you can sit in the room and comfort/ sing etc, then slowly leave the room. Honestly, your toddler will not self combust if left to cry while learning to fall asleep.

I really dont believe in rod for own back - I did all the 'wrong ' things, then when he got older I let him cry a bit - he learnt to fall asleep very quickly, I never left him crying, just sat and patted and sang to him while he rolled about the cot kicking and falling asleep!

babies need to learn how to settle themselves, its not being cruel.

and you could do it right now, never too late. do you want to be up half the night with a 2 year old?!

Wow thank you for so many replies! Sorry I disappeared - shortly after posting I gave up and we co slept for the rest of the night. Funnily enough he slept quite well, little cuddle monster.

PenelopePipPop thanks for your post- that really does pit things in perspective. Thank goodness you are ok. I would feel the same actually - I wouldn't say I actively regret the choices I've made, but I am staring to wonder whether there isn't a link between my constant responding and why my ds won't stay asleep. I guess I've 'taught' him that he needs me to go to sleep so am wondering, if that's the case, how it will ever change! I just can't see the end of this at the moment.

I do appreciate those more experienced mums who just say 'oh it goes so quickly in hindsight' but honestly it just doesn't feel like it at the time!

To answer the questions people asked, I'm kind of between a rock and a hard place at the moment. We stopped co sleeping at around a year because he was starting to climb all over the bed and not actually sleeping so well. I thought he needed more space (our bed isn't huge) so we stopped, actually relatively painlessly. But he still wakes multiple times so now I have to actually get up and go and stay awake to feed (still bf as easiest way to get him to sleep!) thn put him back in!

DH doesn't do nights as he can't cope at work without a basic amount of sleep. I'm at home so it is my job I suppose. But I did turn down a job only last week... Complex reasons but one, I have to admit, was thinking we can't both work bx deal with the nights! Pathetic I know as many don't have the choice.

You can do sleep training at any age, there are clinics set up full of desperate parents and two year olds who won't sleep. Personally, I would sort it, you can do it the gentle retreat way, or the settle then leave 5/10/15 min way, but I wouldn't be up all night with a 14 month old if they were well-fed I would be moving towards getting this sorted, especially if it is affecting how you feel about another one.

I have tried! I am not desperate enough to try CC - I am NOT judging it btw but my instinct tells me he is far too determined for that to work, plus I just don't want to - but I'm in general trying the No Cry Sleep Solution latch-off thing. It's just the progress is so painfully slow.

I think what really pushed me over the edge last night is that he actually DID self-settle in his cot at 8pm - we had a bf, talked for a while, then he laid down and snuggled, kept opening an eye to check I was still there but eventually fell asleep - I was standing there and occasionally saying 'ssshhhh' but that was it - I wasn't touching him. For us that is massive progress and I was v pleased with myself. I actually went to bed at 8.30 last night to catch up. And he woke up at 9.20!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was so annoyed because I thought if they'd self settled they stayed asleep longer??! We'd had such a busy, active day, I was shattered myself and STILL he couldn't stay asleep longer than 1hr 20 mins!
I realise this is contradicting my original OP a bit , but I was just in despair over what to do. Very occasionally we manage a proper 'self-settle' and it doesn't blimmin help anyway! Argh!

Yes, but you are heading in the right direction. What did you do at 9.20? I wouldn't be breastfeeding an over year old at night to get them to sleep, one lovely cuddly feed before bed, one in the morning, that's plenty unless you actively want to keep night-time feeding.

I think the thing is you do have to be quite determined, if you get him to sleep settling himself, great but then you have to keep going even if you are up for two hours at a time (I found the 'it's bedtime' first time, 'bedtime' Jo Frost return to bed and let them get on with it method good for older ones). If you carry on feeding and cuddling up, I do think he'll carry on wanting it and in my opinion when it gets to the point it is affecting you all negatively in the day (him exhausted, you tired, husband not participating as needs to work out of home) then it's worth some night-time fussing and crying to get them to learn to sleep.

It's not a miraculous overnight cure, but he probably will sleep better if you keep it up.
I found that doing the first sleep of the night NCSS and then dealing with wakings however I needed to helped. After a while DD2 was going to bed well and doing a good stretch to about midnight. That does help.

Could you bring him into your bed after he wakes? If he's properly sleepy by then then he shouldn't climb all over the bed but if he is keeping you awake then you can always move him then - it's a good way for them to learn that they need to be still if they want to be in bed with you!

What time do you usually give him tea and how much does he eat?

Yabvvu...

All 4dds have been very bad sleepers. Now at 6 and 5, dds 1 and 2 are the best sleepers ever. Dd3 3yo generally sleeps through, but if she wakes up one of us go in and sleep on the floor next to her. In the process of buying her a big girls bed so we can hop in there with her. I guess she will grow out of that stage soon, as did our older dds. Dd4 20 months, generally sleeps through, but wakes bright as a button at 6am (sometimes sooner ). We co slept with all of them, ebf on demand sometimes as short as every half hour). It was hard, and it still is hard. I slept on dds floor last night with a pack of nappies as a pillow. I am inspired by my bigger girls sleeping all night, they don't need to come into our bed anymore.

It is really hard, and we are not quite there yet. I'd echo the other comments that it is developmental. It is really, really hard, I have almost seven years of sleep to catch up on!

At around 12-18 months, I cracked with each of them and I stopped breastfeeding at night time ( something like jay Gordon's method) and then did gradual withdrawal.

When I put dd4 down for the night, I Want to keep her and cuddle her! My babies will be grown up soon enough. Although it doesn't seem like it, it really isn't forever.

Fwiw, dh got a lot better at helping in the night. I do the baby, he does the older dds. He has a very demanding job and must be mentally quick and I am the sahm. He realised though that I couldn't manage it all alone and got a lot better. He also needs a lot more sleep than me, I am a bit of an insomniac, but he still pulls his weight now at night. Good luck

Sorry to keep on about this but does your DH works seven days a week? As a brain surgeon or operating dangerous machinery? Unless he does both there is no reason why he can't step up one or two nights out of seven.

We have a poor sleeper and there is no way one of us would have left the other one to deal with it all themselves.

"I actually don't mind it"

You must be like my DH, who can wake up in an instant and go back to deep sleep in the next. As a result, he doesn't mind short interruptions to his sleep

Not everyone is as lucky, though. Many people can't function without a minimum amount of sleep and it is not reasonable to expect them to spend years in this state... and for what? So their child can take his sweet time learning to sleep in the night.

"sharing my nights with him means that we bond in a way we would not do if he was left to cry in a cot in a different room"

Erm, you don't know that. The world is full of people who have bonded perfectly well with their sleep-trained babies. It is just a few nights, each easier than the last, and it is but a moment in the long life of love and caring that parents dedicate their children.

Oh I didn't mean people don't bond with their children. Just not in the same way? I like it, others probably don't feel they want that sort of bond. It's just a different way of relating to the child I suppose...maybe I am trying to romanticise it because it is painful, to an extent, but also I feel it is my pain to take and not the child's job to wonder where I am...this isn't sounding any less pious and patronising is it...

sorry. I am mad.

I have done exactly the same re rocking, holding etc with both my children, first one slept 12 hours a night from 6 weeks, second one does 3 hours at a time if we're lucky, he's 7 months. It's not us, it's them!

I'd basically find it HARDER to sleep train. I think it would be a nightmare. Like trying to control something I have absolutely no hope of controlling! I have spent my life doing that.

Just a look at this thread shows why sleep training them as babies is such a good idea. People whose children haven't slept through the night until they are 3, 4, or 5. Parents who sleep on the floor next to the bed of a 3-year-old etc. Madness

I don't know anyone in RL who lives like this.

"maybe I am trying to romanticise it because it is painful"

Yes, I think that is what you are doing, too

Quenelle the truth is... DH turned to me when DS was ten days old and said 'I'm back at work soon, there's no way I can keep this up [this being getting up at night] and there's no point in us both being tired. I need to get sleep now.'

Tbh I haven't completely forgiven him for that one! I was still an absolute mess emotionally and, to be frank, physically, from a CS. Did all the nights from then til a year with very few exceptions. This is why we ended up cosleeping! For a while when he was tiny - say about 6 weeks to 4/5 months - I was actually getting loads of sleep as he quickly learned to latch on and help himself, and I slept through all the feeds. It was fab. But as he got bigger, he needed more room, and more attention from me, and the co sleeping thing just didn't really work anymore. When he turned one and still hadn't done a long stretch of sleep I cracked - literally had a bit of a melt-down - and demanded that DH help me at night, work or no work, as I was losing it. He did for about 6 weeks - 2 months, but the change in him was obvious - he was shattered and not coping. And he is the one making all the money!

So now it's back to me again. I think I need to totally night wean him but I just don't see how I can do that with no support. DS isn't just going to forget that I have boobs! It's such a comfort thing for him now. He sticks his hand down my top during the day too

Just feel so stuck in this situation. I don't know anyone else in RL with a child this 'bad' at sleep, though the sleep boards here confirm we aren't alone! But others' kids just don't seem as stubborn. A friend last week described night weaning as 'just happening naturally'. Another has a baby who hasn't asked for a night feed since 6 months of age. She looked horrified that I would still feed a 14mo. But it's 20mins of sitting in a chair with my eyes shut or two hours of shhh/pat/cuddle/rock/music/white noise/suicidal thoughts!

I agree with you about the 20 minutes of quiet vs one hour of screaming...

As the mum of a nearly 20 month old... it will happen!!

Does your DH work weekends? Can he not take 1 day off work and have a long weekend for night weaning? I agree, it will be much easier if your DH goes to your DS when he wakes in the night.

Op, it sounds like the root of the problem is your dh not helping rather than your little one's sleep being unusual. My dd1 sounds just like your ds, I hues the difference is do shared the night waking. Why on earth does him earning the money entitle him to opt out of parenting when he's at home? I think it's massively selfish of him to not want to share the burden. Am for you.

YABVU

I love this theory that people have ONE baby and suddenly they are experts on all babies.

Every baby/child is different. I know it's exhausting at the moment but that doesn't mean every baby reacts in the same way.

We broke all the rules with dd3. Slept in our bed on and off in the night, breastfed her to sleep and throughout the night etc. And she slept through the night in her cot after a year or so.

I don't know if you are breast or bottle feeding but breastfed babies are not supposed to sleep through the night at a young age.